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Poll
Do you go for the score, or just preserve your team for the second half?
No (I'm a yellow bellied coward who can't stomach the though of harming my chance at a 1-1 draw)
4%
 4%  [ 3 ]
Yes (I can't comprehend possible adverse consequences to my choices and I always put the pedal to the metal)
95%
 95%  [ 59 ]
Total Votes : 62


Thresh



Joined: Apr 12, 2020

Post   Posted: May 15, 2020 - 05:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Always win. If you simply cannot possibly win, draw. If you cannot win or draw, lose with honor.
MrCushtie



Joined: Aug 10, 2018

Post   Posted: May 15, 2020 - 07:24 Reply with quote Back to top

No pie option. Whole thing is methodologically flawed.

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Joost



Joined: Mar 17, 2014

Post   Posted: May 15, 2020 - 08:21 Reply with quote Back to top

Kondor wrote:
A famous American football coach once said something like "A tie is like kissing your sister. Sure, you can do it and at times it is appropriate but neither of you should ever get anything out of it."

I wish all games went into overtime unless otherwise agreed upon before the match began. Maybe the mindset is different among people who prefer soccer to American Football.


interesting thought. for practical reasons I am not in favour:
1 we now have to make 1.5 hours available for a game on fumbbl, that would then be 2.25 hours which is a lot tougher to do.
2 that approach would favour certain teams a lot more I think. perhaps a rebalancing would be required first.

but it would make things more exciting if all you can play for is a tie and it is to be achieved via H2 stalling.
dabassman



Joined: Feb 17, 2006

Post   Posted: May 15, 2020 - 09:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Kondor wrote:
A famous American football coach once said something like "A tie is like kissing your sister. Sure, you can do it and at times it is appropriate but neither of you should ever get anything out of it."


Most of the time my Goblins really enjoy kissing their sister.
Muff2n



Joined: May 20, 2017

Post   Posted: May 15, 2020 - 11:30 Reply with quote Back to top

RE: Everyone dissing on draws.
I personally quite like a draw if it is the result of a well played, tight game by both players. You can imagine that my 'equity' depending on the result of a game is as follows: -3 for a loss, +1 for a draw, +2 for a win. Therefore for me I am happier to grab a draw than risk losing for a shot at winning.

RE neilwat:
No way me going for the score will allow me extra hits. Firstly, opponent has a bench, so even if I do get hits, the most I am doing is downgrading one of their players to a lineman. Each player I lose is one less player. Asymmetrical rewards. Secondly, even if I do get extra hits, if I am going for the score it is often poor play to take those extra hits because I might turnover. If I'm going for the score then nothing is more important than the positioning of my receivers. Going for the score will get more blocks on my players, and won't really generate extra blocks on my opponents.

@mrt1212
In your scenario do everything I can to stop my opponent scoring. So I take the leap after screening as much as I can. That is just one armour roll we are talking about.

In general I am shocked to see how one sided the poll is and how alone I am in my approach.
Muff2n



Joined: May 20, 2017

Post   Posted: May 15, 2020 - 11:56 Reply with quote Back to top

RE: Timetis
Yes a 1-1 first half is a great result. Going 1-1 and losing two players would be fine, as I can still probably hold onto the ball in the second half. The issue is that I might drop to 9 players and not get the score. Now I have not only lost the win but also quite probably thrown the draw away too. It is not in anyway about me being scared to lose players because I like the players. I'm scared to lose players in the first half because I don't want to reduce my chances of scoring in the second half.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: May 15, 2020 - 12:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Muff2n wrote:

In general I am shocked to see how one sided the poll is and how alone I am in my approach.


I am shocked that you are shocked. Smile

Why play for the draw when you can play for the win?
Unless maybe you have only four players on the field vs their eleven. Even then it depends on who those four players are. Wink

You may as well play for the defeat. Except that is against the rules.

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Rags



Joined: Nov 09, 2008

Post   Posted: May 15, 2020 - 12:22 Reply with quote Back to top

ArthurWynne wrote:
If it's 0-1 and you have two turns to score, you take whatever chances you need to take. It's such a huge swing on the entire game if you can get the 1-1 equalizer. It's the difference between playing to win in your own receiving drive, and having to play to not lose.


There we have it. Preach brother!
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: May 15, 2020 - 13:25 Reply with quote Back to top

The scenario above is effectively asking a coach to trade off the advantage of striking first with even teams in h2 at 0-1, for potentially striking first with slightly lesser teams and 1-1.

A loss of 2-3 players can be potentially recouped from the LOS+blitz+foul.

That loss of 2-3 players from t6-t8 btw is almost guaranteed to be lower odds than the odds of you scoring.

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Lex_Rocket



Joined: Oct 27, 2018

Post   Posted: May 15, 2020 - 15:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Three turns is enough to give most teams a decent chance at scoring, this isn't an aggressive vs. conservative mindset, this is a play the game or don't mindset.

If the team was one that really had a powerful way to remove your players and give your worse numbers for the second half their two remaining turns like you're worried about. It is unlikely that they'd even give you three turns to score at the end of the first half. If you have three turns to score at the end of the first half you played defense right as far as I'm concerned and should try and get the TD 100% of the time.
Lex_Rocket



Joined: Oct 27, 2018

Post   Posted: May 15, 2020 - 15:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Also remember not all players are created equal, even if there's a couple linemen on the bench taking one of his positionals out of the game in the next three turns of bashing you have counts for a lot in the second half.
akuku88



Joined: Sep 07, 2015

Post   Posted: May 15, 2020 - 16:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Muff2n wrote:
Picture the scene. It is the start of h1t6 and you are 0-1 down but receiving. You have 11 players on a team that has average speed and average agility. Your opponent's team is similar in strength to you team, but they have a bench.

In order to get a chance at a TD you need to take extra hits as you try to force a gap. Even if you get a breakthrough, the number of dice rolls you must make mean the TD is fairly unlikely, though there's a reasonable chance.

You will receive in the second half.


In this situation I will MOST LIKELY try to score even if that means additional hits. I still have 2-3 turns to score, I can do it. And I have to, it's a chance at winning.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: May 15, 2020 - 19:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Muff2n wrote:
RE: Everyone dissing on draws.
I personally quite like a draw if it is the result of a well played, tight game by both players. You can imagine that my 'equity' depending on the result of a game is as follows: -3 for a loss, +1 for a draw, +2 for a win. Therefore for me I am happier to grab a draw than risk losing for a shot at winning.

RE neilwat:
No way me going for the score will allow me extra hits. Firstly, opponent has a bench, so even if I do get hits, the most I am doing is downgrading one of their players to a lineman. Each player I lose is one less player. Asymmetrical rewards. Secondly, even if I do get extra hits, if I am going for the score it is often poor play to take those extra hits because I might turnover. If I'm going for the score then nothing is more important than the positioning of my receivers. Going for the score will get more blocks on my players, and won't really generate extra blocks on my opponents.

@mrt1212
In your scenario do everything I can to stop my opponent scoring. So I take the leap after screening as much as I can. That is just one armour roll we are talking about.

In general I am shocked to see how one sided the poll is and how alone I am in my approach.


I wouldn't be that surprised because you're predicating your risk appetite on absolute blocks->armor roll given up in kind on your opponents next turn.

You don't think that on defense, one last gasp chance and armor roll sans Apo is 'too much' risk, but on offense, going for broke and giving up 3-4 blocks along the way is 'too much' risk.

Let's distill it down even further - you'd take a last gasp chance and risk injury to keep the score 0-0 but not press on offense to make it 1-1?

There are ways to litigate any scenario to hit one's own 'sweet spot' of risk appetite. Would I press super hard on offense with long odds if bungling it was a mere 3+ pass, 2+ catch in retaliation? Probably, but that's the thing that scares me - pressing too hard and giving up a score in kind. I can still score with most teams sitting at 8 v 11 but it ain't pretty or unrisky.

This isn't to say that your scenario doesn't play out, but the particulars are usually different for me. I find that on occasion, especially with Skaven and Wood Elves, I can go up 2-0 at half but at great cost to the team. But that's mostly a function of overly aggressive defense for success, not weathering blows or dice on offense. Most the time.
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: May 15, 2020 - 20:52 Reply with quote Back to top

In most sports a win and a loss is worth more than 2 draws, at least in a league table. I suppose on fumbbl that is different if you are not playing in a league and you are purely looking at the win rate calculation. As here a draw counts as half a win.
But it is still a normal thing that people would go for a win instead of hold a draw if the odds of winning are actually quite good. As others say it may be different if you have 4 or 5 players turn 6, not 10 or 11 players!

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