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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: May 18, 2020 - 08:45 Reply with quote Back to top

There are some good tactic guides out there for blood bowl. Reading up will improve your play.

Careful though there are some rubbish guides too.

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CrookfangRob



Joined: Jan 22, 2019

Post   Posted: May 18, 2020 - 09:04 Reply with quote Back to top

When I started playing I was constantly caught out by Kick Off results - I just didn't include them in my plan. Now, I ALWAYS set up to protect against a Blitz! or Riot if I'm on offence (and mitigate for the other results apart from Pitch Invasion, Throw a Rock or Sweltering Heat, which you can't really plan for) and I don't remember the last time a Kick Off Event really caught me out.
Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: May 18, 2020 - 09:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Bacon, like chess, will die out shortly due to lack of randomness, PurpleChest.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: May 18, 2020 - 11:25 Reply with quote Back to top

mekutata wrote:
koadah wrote:


It would be great if BB had a decent AI.


https://fumbbl.com/p/blog&c=Grod&id=8461


I believe that it is a long way from giving an experienced coach a good game.

As is the Cyanide AI. Wink

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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Stars - Anniversary Bowl - Teams of Stars - 13th March
bonethug0108



Joined: May 20, 2020

Post   Posted: May 20, 2020 - 19:12 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
If Chess is at one end of the spectrum (no randomness, player skill only affecting the game) and current Blood Bowl is close to the opposite end (randomness but with coaching skill affecting the game), the Blood Bowl I'd like to play it's somewhere half-way of this spectrum (a bit less randomness/drastically affecting game randomess and with coaching skill affecting more the outcome of games).


Blood Bowl in its current state IS about in the middle of the spectrum. It is far from determined solely on die rolls.

Hell I'd even go so far as to say it's actually closer to the non random end, and there's a pretty good test to determine the randomness of games.

In chess it's almost always clear who is the better player (or at least what tier player they are). You will see the same names at the top of the lists over and over (barring players getting substantial better but again that points to skill). Chess is 100% non random and 100% skill based.

Now a game where 2 people roll dice from a cup and see who rolls higher, that is a game with zero skill. You would rarely see the same winner over and over. It's 100% random.

With Blood Bowl, you see quite a few names over and over, though they change from time to time and even the best coaches lose. That suggests a game that is luck based, but is still rooted more in skill. If the "best players" list was never the same then you could argue against that.

Blood Bowl falls more in the 67-75% skill based, 25-33% luck based category. It is designed around the fact that you don't always want the same teams/coaches winning, but the better ones win a lot more than they lose.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 20, 2020 - 19:43 Reply with quote Back to top

I know that BB is not total random and that coaching skill matters in the long run.
What I meant is: half way between Chess 100% skill and 0% luck and the current BB with 67% skill and 33% luck (let's use yours numbers as example), not between 0% random and 100% random, i.e. 80% coaching skill, 20% luck.
I hope it's clearer now.
Also, there are 2 kinds of randomness: randomness you can't control at all, like some Kick-Off Events, and randomness you have some control on, like trying GFIs or dodges or not risking them.
Randomness you can't control should not affect strongly a game (especially a 1 hour-long game like BB).
Kick Off Events should add variety and unpredictability to the game, but should not have the potential of deciding a game on their own.
I would not like a BB without a Kick Off Table or a Weather, but those elements should just spice up the game, offering some small challenges to overcome apart from your opponent's moves, without being game changing.

For example, there is a big difference from a Pitch Invasion stunning 4 players and another one just placing them Prone without stunning.
The latter is weaker but still provides some tactical variety.
bonethug0108



Joined: May 20, 2020

Post   Posted: May 20, 2020 - 20:40 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
I know that BB is not total random and that coaching skill matters in the long run.
What I meant is: half way between Chess 100% skill and 0% luck and the current BB with 67% skill and 33% luck (let's use yours numbers as example), not between 0% random and 100% random, i.e. 80% coaching skill, 20% luck.
I hope it's clearer now.
Also, there are 2 kinds of randomness: randomness you can't control at all, like some Kick-Off Events, and randomness you have some control on, like trying GFIs or dodges or not risking them.
Randomness you can't control should not affect strongly a game (especially a 1 hour-long game like BB).
Kick Off Events should add variety and unpredictability to the game, but should not have the potential of deciding a game on their own.
I would not like a BB without a Kick Off Table or a Weather, but those elements should just spice up the game, offering some small challenges to overcome apart from your opponent's moves, without being game changing.

For example, there is a big difference from a Pitch Invasion stunning 4 players and another one just placing them Prone without stunning.
The latter is weaker but still provides some tactical variety.


I can see what you mean by the decided randomness (decisions you make requiring dice rolls) and pure randomness (like the kick off table even if it is weighted).

The first thing about that is they have stadium enhancements (unless that went away with the new rules) that cancels out certain kick off events. If they bug you that much you can choose, for instance, the one that cancels throw a rock and I think pitch invasion.

The other is you don't want to completely weaken the events as to make them pointless. I think a cap on the # of players stunned on each side wouldn't be terrible for pitch invasion. Maybe 3 or 4 but I let others argue for or against something like that.

For throw a rock maybe either cap it at ko'd or badly hurt. I'd lean badly hurt because as others said the odds of getting it in the first place are so small, and then hurting any one particular player even smaller, not to mention the regular odds of an armor roll meaning an actual injury from it is extremely rare. The point of it is to swing the match a bit. It isn't meant to be fair. It's meant to be an obstacle to overcome in some way.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 20, 2020 - 20:51 Reply with quote Back to top

As far as I know, special stadia are not part of official rules, they are available on BB2 only.

About the Rock: it automatically breaks the AV, so, when a player is hit is a straight Injury roll.
If it had to break AV first it would be weaker.

Rocks are not always a tragedy, I agree, but when they happen, they have the potential to screw a game.
Now, if a game lasted 10 minutes, I could live with that, but a BB match lasts 1 hour. It's a lot of time spent in a frustrating way.
PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: May 20, 2020 - 21:12
FUMBBL Staff
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MattDakka wrote:
A load of old guff.


No.

Just no.

You speak as if such systems are independant, they arnt. its all connected.

None of the rules are a suprise, you knew them as you built your team.

Worried a rock will remove your star player? then build to not rely on one star player.

Worried about blitzes, set up to defend it better, or pick a race that copes with them better. But dont pick a race that struggles to defend blitzes, set up in no way to mitigate it and then complain it over powered.

Worried about PD robbing you of your hits? set to cover it. (beautifully the two key 'offence is stronger' counters can each be well countered with good set ups, but not at the same time))

and as i aid before, low ff getting you down? hire coaches and assistants, or use the lack of FF tv advantage better.



It's all choices. Make better ones. Dont expect the game to mitigate your bad ones, or be redesigned so that your preferences are automatically the best choices.

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JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: May 20, 2020 - 21:20 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
As far as I know, special stadia are not part of official rules, they are available on BB2 only.

About the Rock: it automatically breaks the AV, so, when a player is hit is a straight Injury roll.
If it had to break AV first it would be weaker.

Rocks are not always a tragedy, I agree, but when they happen, they have the potential to screw a game.
Now, if a game lasted 10 minutes, I could live with that, but a BB match lasts 1 hour. It's a lot of time spent in a frustrating way.


Throw a Rock happens 2/36, which means 1/13th of the times. If it was always in your favor (and it definitely is NOT), it has a 7.69% chance of happening. I'll be kind and give you a 70% chance of it being in your favor: that's 5.38% of getting a random injury roll.

A single blitz or block with claw has a 41.7% of breaking armor and being a direct injury roll. You can't avoid such a block either, and more often than not the claw player can choose a decent target, using the blitz.

And you're arguing that Throw a Rock has the potential of screwing a game in turn 1.

Can it? Sure. Everything can. But you are definitely blowing this out of proportions.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 20, 2020 - 21:40 Reply with quote Back to top

PurpleChest wrote:

Worried a rock will remove your star player? then build to not rely on one star player.

Again.

I made an example with TV 1000 starting rosters playing a mirror match.
Losing a Guardian or an Anointed Thrower due to a Rock on turn 0 has the potential to be game changing.
If you don't (or want) understand it I can't change your mind, because it's really very simple and doesn't need to be explained.
Stop talking about star players, not all teams are minmaxed.
And by the way, since you like to bring over and over again the star player in the discussion:

https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4146697

in this match I lost a Super Star GR due to turn 0 Rock, yet I won 3-0.
I know how to overcome events, the fact I can overcome them it doesn't change they have the potential to be game breaking.



JanMattys: of course, even clawmb is another issue, the fact there are many issues in BB doesn't make any of them less undesiderable.
By the way, I played Cpomb more games than you during CRP (and I guess I played way more BB games than you overall judging by our records), I know how effective is clawmb.
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: May 20, 2020 - 21:44 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
JanMattys: of course, even clawmb is another issue, the fact there are many issues in BB doesn't make any of them less undesiderable.
By the way, I played Cpomb more games than you during CRP (and I guess I played way more BB games than you overall judging by our records), I know how effective is clawmb.


Dude, that's the third strike. You can't help but be condescending. I am leaving this conversation now Smile
Take care and have great blood bowl.
(btw: it's fun how you mentioned clawmb... I said claw. The fact that you can stack another skill on top of that just proves my point even more).

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 20, 2020 - 21:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Claw on its own is quite ok, the issues really start when stacking with MB.
This is why I mentioned Clawmb.
bonethug0108



Joined: May 20, 2020

Post   Posted: May 20, 2020 - 22:14 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
As far as I know, special stadia are not part of official rules, they are available on BB2 only.

About the Rock: it automatically breaks the AV, so, when a player is hit is a straight Injury roll.
If it had to break AV first it would be weaker.

Rocks are not always a tragedy, I agree, but when they happen, they have the potential to screw a game.
Now, if a game lasted 10 minutes, I could live with that, but a BB match lasts 1 hour. It's a lot of time spent in a frustrating way.


I meant injury roll for that part with throw a rock.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: May 20, 2020 - 23:25 Reply with quote Back to top

and you don't like khemri 1000tv mirror matches having a rock make a problem less than 1% of your games? don't play khemri 1000tv. YOU HAVE THE CHOICE.
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