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Uhuru



Joined: Nov 09, 2019

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2020 - 07:40 Reply with quote Back to top

So first post. Made a Khorne team instead of studying. I know the price values are almost certainly off, but would like some feedback on how far off they are.

Personal problems with the current Khorne:
Coming from someone who owns the Greebo minis and loves to play them, the whole team dynamic is so strange. Like some parts don’t quite fit together and the only overarching theme is 'frenzy'.
The bloodletter in particular confuses me. Only player with AV7 and without frenzy is a demon? Regen and also an apo? AGI and ST access?
And aren’t Heralds just better/captain versions of Bloodletters? They're not a different species of demon. Why heralds and letters so different to each other?
Why does the Pitt Fighter have passing access?
The whole team seems to be having an identity crisis.
If you want to play a frenzy team, why not play Norse? They can also start with tonnes of frenzy but at least they all have block.

So I thought since the Khorne identity of frenzy isn't even unique, why not take a different approach? My favorite aspect of current Khorne is the juggernaut horns combo. So I tried to make a Khorne team in a similar fashion as nurgle where it's just a re-flavored version of chaos chosen. Since Norse are also the 'frenzy team', I' tried to give them a unique identity as the 'blitzing team'.


Bloodthirster
6-5-1-9
Chosen of Khorne, Loner, Wild Animal, Claws, Frenzy, Horns, Juggernaut, Regeneration
Normals: S
Doubles: G, A, P
Cost: 160k
Limit: 1

Khorne Herald
5-4-3-9
Chosen of Khorne, Regeneration, Horns, Juggernaut
Normals: G, S
Doubles: A, P
Cost: 120k
Limit: 2

Bloodletter
6-3-3-8
Chosen of Khorne, Regeneration, Horns, Juggernaut
Cost: 80k
Normals: G, S
Doubles: A, P
Limit: 4

Pitt Fighter
6-3-3-8
Chosen of Khorne
Cost: 50k
Normals: G
Doubles: S, A, P
Limit: None

Rerolls: 60k

Apothecary: None

Chosen of Khorne (extraordinary): When an opponent is knocked down by this player during a block, treat a roll of 9 on the Injury table after any modifiers have been applied as a Casuality result rather than a KO’d result. Subtract 1 to any Armour roll AND Injury roll made by a player with this skill when they make a Foul as part of a Foul Action.


Overall Changes:
Apo removed. Rerolls 60k (makes the non big guy, 3 rerolls roster complete).
Chosen of Khorne - Just changes a KO to a CAS which shouldn't change too much other KO returns and SPP. Comes with a big caveat of a negative modifier to fouls. Khorne wants a glorious fight. Just some good old Khorne fun really.



Individual Changes
Pitt Fighter - Basic human lineman with no skill access, apo or regen. While not terrible, these are now just the rotters of the team that die for Khorne.
Bloodletter - Beastmen/Pestigors with no mutation access but with juggernaut and regen.
Khorne Herald - Chaos Chosen with no mutation access but juggernaut, horns and regen. Stars of the team. Good thing that there are only 2 of them.
Bloodthirster - Always loved this guy, but the price was a way too much. Khorne Heralds can now perform a similar role but the thirster still brings claw and frenzy. Still most expensive big guy in the game.

Side Note: Chosen of Khorne is a placeholder name. Not 100% on Khorne lore, might be a better more lore friendly word/phrase to use. Would like to know if someone has a better suggestion
MrCushtie



Joined: Aug 10, 2018

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2020 - 08:19 Reply with quote Back to top

I like it.

Couple of things feel like they're not expensive enough though: the Heralds are a bit cheap, given they're a Chaos Chosen blocker with regen and two useful skills. I suppose the lack of Mutation access is a bit of a ding, but is it enough?

Bloodthirster seems really cheap - you've got the speed of a Rat Ogre, the horns of a mino and Juggs and Claw. Missing M access is no big deal as he's got the only mutations you'd want on him, and ok, lower AG, but that's not going to be the ball carrier anyway

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LemonheadWallenstein



Joined: Dec 20, 2012

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2020 - 08:21 Reply with quote Back to top

the whole team with mighty blow and dirty player...... ok
Fanky



Joined: Jul 07, 2016

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2020 - 08:32 Reply with quote Back to top

The biggest problem is not the wrong prices here, it's the Chosen of Khorne special rule. It's just madness : D Is it supposed to stack with Might Blow? Even if not, it's just too much considering that's for free. Join the Secret League world! https://fumbbl.com/help:SecretLeague


Last edited by Fanky on Jun 16, 2020 - 08:34; edited 5 times in total
Uhuru



Joined: Nov 09, 2019

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2020 - 08:32 Reply with quote Back to top

MrCushtie wrote:

Bloodthirster seems really cheap - you've got the speed of a Rat Ogre, the horns of a mino and Juggs and Claw. Missing M access is no big deal as he's got the only mutations you'd want on him, and ok, lower AG, but that's not going to be the ball carrier anyway


130k for the heralds you think, or more? Was basing the Bloodthirster's price more off the 40k cheaper Snow Troll, but looking at the Rat ogre you're probably right on that. I thought the general consensus was the bloodthirster is too expensive?

wallenstein wrote:
the whole team with mighty blow and dirty player...... ok


It's the same chance of removal, just higher chance of injury. And it's a negative to fouls, so opposite of dirty player for the whole team.
Uhuru



Joined: Nov 09, 2019

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2020 - 08:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Fanky wrote:
The biggest problems are not the wrong prices here, it's the Chosen of Khorne special rule. It's just madness : D Is it supposed to stack with Might Blow? Even if not, it's just too much. Join the Secret League world! https://fumbbl.com/help:SecretLeague


I thought it wouldn't be that bad since the removal chance is the same. CAS goes from 8.34% to 15.67% but KO drops from 19.44% to 11.11%. I don't think that's really game breaking. How about it works both ways? 9's on injury rolls for both Khorne and the opponent are CAS? Just trying to spice things up a little.
Chivite



Joined: Sep 04, 2017

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2020 - 09:11 Reply with quote Back to top

How about giving all the possitionals the "no hands" skill to balance things up? Also, why should murder deamons care for the ball??
Also, drop the av of the herald, change claw for mb on thirster and remove the khorne chosen skill, too op.
In that sense you dont need to invent a new skill, you change the dinamic, and bring a bit of cohesion within the lore?
Thirster - 6519 loner no hands wild animal horns jugger mighty blow frenzy regen- 170
Herald - 5438 no hands, jugger horns regen - 120
Letter - 6338 no hands, jugger, horns, regen - 90
Pit fighters -6338 - 50

Anyhow, i agree with what you say about the current roster not having cohesion. All the deamons should have regen, why wouldnt the heralds have it?! Also, agility access on letters, weird.
Uhuru



Joined: Nov 09, 2019

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2020 - 09:33 Reply with quote Back to top

My thoughts were Nurgle gets a new skill why shouldn't Khorne? But so far that seem to be the most OP part. Could also just make em AGI 2 if them being ball carriers is the issue. They shouldn't be dodging away from fights anyway.

Chivite wrote:

Anyhow, i agree with what you say about the current roster not having cohesion. All the deamons should have regen, why wouldnt the heralds have it?! Also, agility access on letters, weird.


They're such a weird team! I wish I was a fly on the wall for when they were being discussed.
PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2020 - 12:25
FUMBBL Staff
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Where to begin?

First, I have no problem with anyone theory bowling, its great people think outside the box in BB.

However, GW have a stated policy that no more fan generated content will ever be allowed in BB. Even Khorne as they exist (and Slann and Bretonnians) do not exist to GW. there is even a famous Jervis quote that he would never let Bloodthirsters into BB because it would be absurd.

Khorne were born on Cyanides version of BB to drive sales with a unique team not available anywhere else, according to hearsay the original plan was totally overpowered and some of the user base involved in playtesting ensured they were nerfed and came in around tier 2.5, on a par with vamps but above the stunty races.

The three abandoned races are still used, for now, in NAF, and are legal there, but with no GW backing they lack the support other races get, Stars and updates especially.

So it is hard to know what you are trying to achieve here beyond a thought experiment. NAF will not be changing those rosters to even less official versions, FUMBBL similarly tries to follow the official rules as closely as possible, and even cyanide are rumoured to be have been told 'no new nonsense invented by you' in their rumoured to exist and being developed and playtested BB3 game.

Perhaps the most likely home for any ideas like these is secret league.


To the ideas themselves:
I read through thinking 'yup, space marines' as you raise the team level to tier one, with cheap disposable line fodder, great hitters and positionals, all without any negatives, and arguably the best Big Guy in BB.

Then you throw in a racial skill that will ensure they destroy other teams regularly, raising the casualty dice leading to injury from 6 results to 10 results even before MB is applied.

So i think there is some work to be done before this can be taken seriously even in the experimental area of secret league.

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Barbarus hic ego sum, quia non intelligor illis -Ovid
I am a barbarian here because i am not understood by anyone
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2020 - 12:53 Reply with quote Back to top

As an aside, Secret League has already Daemons of Khorne and Khorne teams, it doesn't seem likely that Garion would add another Khorne team similar to those already existing.
Uhuru



Joined: Nov 09, 2019

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2020 - 13:48 Reply with quote Back to top

PurpleChest wrote:
Where to begin?
To the ideas themselves:
I read through thinking 'yup, space marines' as you raise the team level to tier one, with cheap disposable line fodder, great hitters and positionals, all without any negatives, and arguably the best Big Guy in BB.


...okay? Not exactly constructive feedback there friend. Can you elaborate on this? So the racial skill is OP, that had already been established. Anything to add other than positionals being too strong? Without the Big guy, it's an avg strength, agility, Armour, movement team with no ball handling and only skills that work on a blitz.

Not trying to start a Khorne revolution here, just wanted to play Khorne without the frenzy with my friends.

Also calling the Bloodthirster the best big guy in the game is very much up for debate, he's on some people's worst lists.
https://bbtactics.com/forum/threads/big-guys-from-worst-to-best.7194/
Tripleskull



Joined: Oct 12, 2003

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2020 - 14:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Remove the bloodthirster and let Chosen of Khorne add 1 to Fame for the game for each casualty - not winnings - and the team might work ok.

Removing the one big weakness on a team with a literally monstrous killing machine is a really dead end.
PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2020 - 14:29
FUMBBL Staff
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OK, challenge accepted. But constructive does not equate to praise, but to useful feedback, so I will try to elaborate.

the best big guy: AV9 and frenzy makes him a stand out, as does claw and instant easy MB access. Juggernaut covers the lack of block access and Regen rocks. At MA 6 he is also fast.

Khorne Herald is the same stat line as Chaos Warriors, though reduced to 2, and you get Regen, Horns and Juggernaut all for 20K. These will quickly dominate the LOS and can blitz Big Guys, Bull Centaurs, BOB etc easily and relatively safely from game one.

Bloodletters get an AV boost for free! 20k more than a beastman for regen and Juggernaut isnt too bad, but is another factor in raising the tier considerably.

Ah but they only get 4, when chaos get 12. Yes but thats part of the cost of Chaos, expensive linemen with skills they will not often use, a key reason Nurgle with their cheaper line fodder are the kill team of choice.

Pit fighters: I understand the desire to base linemen on the 'bog standard' human lineman. But it slightly misses the point that humans are seen to have one of the best value linemen around, mobile, cheap and reasonably armoured. So again we get a free upgrade here without any drawback, raising their tier.

Rerolls drop 10k as understandably you want three to start with. Fine, but another boost.

If we ignore the racial trait (and its base 66% cas increase) i think these will outperform Chaos out of the box and be viable in your private league. i dont think they are quite tier one at outset but would expect them to grow long term into absolute monsters and when the Big Guy is afforded outperform Chaos and Nurgle. So if the league is fairly short, then maybe it could work OK.

At the core you have upgraded every single aspect of the team while removing their supposed 'USP' and introducing no aspect that is a worry or a negative. there are some lovely figured for Khorne teams though, so i absolutely see the temptation, but if someone said they wanted to play in your league but considered their favoured race under-powered so planned to upgrade them in every direction at once, would you be fine with it?

For a season of 6-8 games, without the racial Megabuff, this could be viable (in your league i would ask and expect, to be able to use them too), but unless your friends are pretty decent at Blood Bowl, or you appalling, i would expect you to do extremely well and i would worry for you this would either disincentivise the rest of the league, or lead to a 'hotspot' of Khorne team buying in your local area.

_________________
Barbarus hic ego sum, quia non intelligor illis -Ovid
I am a barbarian here because i am not understood by anyone
Uhuru



Joined: Nov 09, 2019

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2020 - 15:39 Reply with quote Back to top

See now that's very constructive.

You keep saying boost like all I did was add things and take nothing away. The letter lost agi access for a av! How's that a buff? Linesman are 10k less for losing frenzy and passing access. It's all pretty much the same except for the Herald.

I think juggernaut horns is an amazing combo in a vacuum, but when your entire team has it you're losing a lot of value. It's also kind of the point that the Heralds dominate the LOS from game 1. They cost as much as a werewolf and 40k more than a Black orc. But I agree they need to be toned down in other aspects, especially ball handling skills. What do you think of a price increase to 130k and putting both the heralds and letters down to AG 2?

To be honest I also don't think I agree with you no obvious weakness is a bad thing. I mean that's pretty much what hybrid teams are. Not every team needs to be Khemri. This team has one strong blitz a turn and if you don't use that effectively you're playing a skilless team with 2 str 4 players, avg AV, MA, and AG.

The human linesman were made with the perspective that you can't foul with them (because of the racial trait), and they're prone to die from lack of apo and regen. Other than that, I don't know what else you would like me to do with them? 10k for jug? Not like they're going to be using it.

How's this?

Bloodthirster
6-5-1-9
Loner, Wild Animal, Claws, Frenzy, Horns, Juggernaut, Regeneration
180k

Khorne Herald
5-4-2-8
Regeneration, Horns, Juggernaut
130k

Bloodletter
6-3-3-8
Regeneration, Horns, Juggernaut
80k

Pitt Fighter
6-3-3-8
Juggernaut
60k

OR

Pitt Fighter
6-3-3-7
Juggernaut
50k
golum89



Joined: Apr 27, 2012

Post   Posted: Oct 23, 2020 - 18:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi, I like to prove some new teams, but like purple chest I think this roster is OP, you can check this link "https://snowwhitehills.blogspot.com/2020/06/jervis-johnson-blood-bowl-player-cost.html"

In this link you will find info of how to develop a "fair" team, this rules were created by Jarvis, the creator of bloodbowl, and always are a good point for start instead of start from scratch.
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