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Poll
Best Post Apocalyptic flop?
Waterworld
33%
 33%  [ 66 ]
Salute of the Jugger (called The Blood of heroes in some regions)
15%
 15%  [ 31 ]
The Postman
14%
 14%  [ 28 ]
Dredd (not the sly stallone one)
24%
 24%  [ 48 ]
Deathrace 2000
6%
 6%  [ 13 ]
Deathsport
1%
 1%  [ 2 ]
Cyborg
3%
 3%  [ 7 ]
Total Votes : 195


MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 06, 2020 - 13:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Being sent off immediately seems too much as penalty for stalling.
Uedder



Joined: Aug 03, 2010

Post   Posted: Aug 06, 2020 - 13:19 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm pretty sure there's no rule against stalling, because whatever thing you came up would be easy to circumnavigate. It's just a definition in the rulebook, because new players have to know about it, otherwise they'd just miss out on a very important strategic aspect of the game.

The best way to avoid stalling is to make scoring early appealing, on some level.
ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 06, 2020 - 13:50 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Being sent off immediately seems too much as penalty for stalling.


Perhaps if you dont make the non-dice score, you are forced to score by the Ref and the offending player is put in the KO box (like a sin-bin)?

Turn markers are moved forward and a new drive is set up (offending player may or may not make his KO roll)
Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 06, 2020 - 14:04 Reply with quote Back to top

Speculation - it could be a post match penalty: automatic fan factor loss (the fans don't like stalling) or a loss to winnings / treasury (the sponsors don't like it either)? Potentially as an optional tule for Leagues?

_________________
I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.

Oscar Wilde
Thelovelyfool



Joined: Dec 19, 2019

Post   Posted: Aug 06, 2020 - 15:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
i made a mistake on imperial lineman last night, the correct stat line is -
0-16 Impereal Retainer Linemen 45k 6 3 4+ 4+ 8+ Fend G AS

which is exactly the same as plasmoids peseants of bretonnia, only 5k cheaper.


I believe they are 5k more expensive, as the Peasants are only 40k.
plasmoid



Joined: Nov 03, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 06, 2020 - 15:25 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi Garion,
sorry if this has already been stated before, but I'm pretty sure that the new price for ST+ is 80K, not 50K.
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 06, 2020 - 15:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
Kondor wrote:
mister__joshua wrote:
I think while throwing was rarely the best option, it was always ‘an’ option when in a pinch and needing a 2 turn score. Now, to even make that option viable teams are going to have to carry a thrower. Undead basically can’t throw at all, except in the most dire of circumstances.


If the Wasting Time rule packs a significant penalty, people will want to score more often meaning you may have more 2-3 turn scores. It may be far more difficult to stall outside of natural scoring range. Throwers will be much more useful in a higher scoring game.


Will they? or will everyone just sit 1 GFI away from scoring. Clock management will still be a thing. Thought jumping over prone players makes screening a little tougher for sure.

Verminardo wrote:




The thing is, I don't think you can eliminate stalling but you can make it much harder.

When I play using a bashing team, one of the difficulties is when the agile team gets behind my defenses and screens and runs circles around the two or three guys that are within range to even threaten the ball at all. With wasting time, if I am facing a MV7 team, I don't have to cover nearly as much ground to prevent an effective stall. I just think it is much harder to stall near midfield as the defense will be able to set up better screens to make scoring harder in later turns and/or put a bit more pressure on the ball to encourage a quick score.

Conversely, bashing teams normally want to stall nearer the endzone. Often right in the corner. If they want to stall they still have to do so a little further from the endzone. Doing so lets the defending team get more players in a screen between the ball and the endzone in the final turn of the half. Again scoring becomes less automatic.

But what about stalling with something like Fumbblruski? Sure, but no matter what team you are running, setting the ball on the ground is a risk. If someone gets pushed onto the ball you never know where it will bounce. Putting it on the ground against an agile team is just asking for it to get stolen.

Finally, if the penalty for stalling is something like a thrown rock at the ball carrier on a roll of a 6, most people will not want to risk losing the ball much less losing a player.

Obviously, no rule can, will, or should completely eliminate stalling, but a rule like time wasting could make it much more difficult.

Yet, this is all just theory. Knowing the way life works we will have this discussion and there will be no penalty at all for wasting time.
kummo



Joined: Mar 29, 2016

Post   Posted: Aug 06, 2020 - 15:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
very suprised to see The Postman get love, I thought that was truly awful. whereas most of the others are good in their own special way Smile

Actually i'd rather see awful movie be remade well

Than already a classic remade cuz altho it gets more eyes on the project, it usually also leads into not living up the expectations.

This is one reason i'm actually wishful for Matrix remakes since altho original had nice ideas, i think 2nd and 3rd had too much back and forth while the side characters kinda didn't make sense (like at times they could go anywhere and do almost anything but they just won't cuz of plot).. also whole series is weird because it was made during the time of "cool silent main characters without emotions".. looking the trilogy back now its so weird that A ROBOT (virus) SEEMS MORE HUMAN THAN MAIN CHARACTERS. I really hope they don't screw the remake the same way the original doesn't live up todays standards anymore.

Oh yeah, offtopic.. umm.. rules... yeah, same thing with these rules! People in general probably would like to see broken stuff done better instead of having these half-working but still broken rulesets spawning.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 06, 2020 - 15:55 Reply with quote Back to top

The ball could be placed on the ground, inside a cage with 4 x Stand Firm players, with the ball carrier ready to pick it the turn before scoring (so, turn 6, place the ball on ground, turn 7 pick it up with ball carrier, turn 8 score).
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 06, 2020 - 16:00 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
The ball could be placed on the ground, inside a cage with 4 x Stand Firm players, with the ball carrier ready to pick it the turn before scoring (so, turn 6, place the ball on ground, turn 7 pick it up with ball carrier, turn 8 score).


Yes. It could be done. However, again it is much more rare and difficult to pull off. And, even with that you still risk fumbling when you really have to pick up the ball.

You rarely see 3 Stand Firm players on the line to prevent a one turn score attempt. How often do you think someone could get 4 of them into position down field? It could happen but rarely would and I would have to give props to a guy that pulled it off.
Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: Aug 06, 2020 - 16:02 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
The ball could be placed on the ground, inside a cage with 4 x Stand Firm players, with the ball carrier ready to pick it the turn before scoring (so, turn 6, place the ball on ground, turn 7 pick it up with ball carrier, turn 8 score).


Even better, 2 SF players turtled on the sideline. You used to have to worry about a crazy leap push out of bounds, but with just the ball there you are good to go.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 06, 2020 - 16:04 Reply with quote Back to top

They have to be about in the middle of the opponent's half zone or so, 7-6 squares from the LOS.
For sure it would be slighty riskier than usual stalling, but quite doable.
AG 4 Sure Hands and MA 7 on ball carrier would help.

Yes even 2 Stand Firm players, honestly I didn't consider all the options, my point was just to suggest the general idea. Smile You could even create a screen of tackle zones around the 2 x or 4 x Stand Firm (or Side Step) players to make harder to pressure them.

About Stand Firm players: BOBs, Tomb Guardians and other slow but strong players use to cage around the ball carrier, so in theory they should be able to get in the right position.
Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: Aug 06, 2020 - 16:09 Reply with quote Back to top

I will say, if a bash team is dedicated to eliminating the stalling penalty by taking a fumblerooskie player and 2/4 SF ball guarders, more power to them. The SF players would probably never level up, sitting around hatching the ball. You want to take 2+ strength access players and dedicate them to standing guard over the ball instead of beating me senseless? AND effectively waste a skill on fumblerooskie to put it there? That is a win in my book!
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 06, 2020 - 16:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Well, the game is supposed to be about winning, not a farming player race.
Also, with MVP nomination (assuming it has not been changed), it's not that hard to skill up players even if they don't take MB.
My BOBs take Block, Guard as first skills and my Orc team still works well.
Frowny



Joined: Apr 27, 2020

Post   Posted: Aug 06, 2020 - 16:20 Reply with quote Back to top

For me the biggest improvement is gw acknowledging that stalling isn't super fun and clearly against the spirit of the game. Even if this iteration doesn't really stop stalling, they will iterate again. While clearly a 'skill' or 'tactic', maybe even a core one, I'm not sure many people would really stand behind it as particularly engaging or interesting gameplay. Surely a fluffy team with a huge advantage would want to smash their opponent worse, not dawdle around! I like the idea of nuffle or fans punishing this. I don't think the rules will actually stop stalling (better to remove the incentive rather than constrain it with rules) but I support the effort wholeheartedly

It also gives me license to mock opponents who stall boringly (even if they do it creatively) Wink
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