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Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 02, 2020 - 11:05 Reply with quote Back to top

pielover101 wrote:
I double checked and you're right on Fan Attendance payouts, and DF would gravitate to 4 because it goes up but not down on ties (DF, FF and Fan Attendance all made things confusing :/ )


I know what you mean.
Fan Factor got renamed Dedicated Fans
FAME got renamed to Fan Factor
Gate not renamed to Fan Attendance

I like the new system but they could have just renamed FAME as Dedicated Fans and left the other two as they were. At least Dedicated Fans does not add to TV now.
Igvy



Joined: Apr 29, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 02, 2020 - 12:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Cloggy wrote:
koadah wrote:
Are the End Times here already?


They kind of are. For me at least, it already feels a bit pointless. The "permanent injury = retirement" policy I've lived by for so many years has already gone out the window. No sense in retiring a -AV Bull Centaur when there's not going to be enough games to build a decent new one right?

Skill choices are also impacted to the extent I would probably turn down something like a first skill +ST on a BoB for instance.

I've already deleted most of my teams and I consider the currently running FC as sort of a farewell tour. As soon as the rules go into effect I will quit Fumbbl.


I understand, the game will change. The attraction of teams built over 50+ games will end.
Happened to me with LRB 4. Suddenly all teams were stacked with skilled players, teams became really strong and low TS died.

New game, new meta, some will move on.

Maybe it will work for you one day. Maybe not.

Maybe in 5 years it will be full circle.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 02, 2020 - 15:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Personally I'm very exited for these new rules and the type of team progression they advocate for. I have played Blood Bowl since first edition and I don't think I have been this exited for a new version since I can remember.

Everything about the new progression rules just screams well balanced and fun. If it can keep teams between 1300-1600 TV most of the time I think this game just got very interesting and allot more tactical and fun again.

I always loved the first seasons or two in BB but once teams started to go well beyond 1800TV teams just got ridiculous and the game rather unbalanced.

I also feel that players not for the most part will stick to their intended roles with stat increases being very few and strength actually staying important the the player that starts with it. It will be rare to see dodging Black Orcs as that is too much of an investment to make for too little worth now. You will only see the odd picked secondary skill now due to the cost of picking them.

I think teams now will be more fun to play and have more themed character to what they are intended and we will rarely see monster teams of teams get totally wiped off the pitch as often.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 02, 2020 - 16:49 Reply with quote Back to top

I guess I dislike it for the same reason that you like it. Mr. Green

I've always thought that blood bowl was a crap "competitive" game.
That is why I liked it. Wink

The new rules will probably make it a much better competitive game. But probably still not a great competitive game.

IMO It will be a lot less fun, silly & varied. But that is not really too bad.

The reason that people are losing their shit is because it is wiping out parts of the game that a lot of people really like and not replacing them with anything.

My suspision is that if you bend the rules to allow higher TV, the new progression rules will probably mean that higher TV will be even more broken than it is now.

This game could fall down the crack of not being competitive enough for the competitive crowd and maybe not fun/fluffy/silly enough for the more fun orientated crowd.

_________________
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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Stars - Anniversary Bowl - Teams of Stars - 13th March
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 02, 2020 - 21:38 Reply with quote Back to top

You should not conflate balanced and nuanced for more competitive... I think that BB2016 and earlier was quite competitive and this version will be equally competitive from a tournament perspective. I don't see this game changing much at all to be honest.

The new rules just will make leagues more balanced and nuanced making more teams equal in terms of power creep. This I can only see as a good thing in the long term.

Some people will obviously dislike this but there is no reason you can allow a much higher draft limit to increase the overall TV of teams in a league.

The old BB also was balanced around the same TV values, there just was no good league rules to keep them in check in the same way as now, especially in terms of cost of skill progression. The new skill progression is really good and well thought out from a power creep perspective.

Obviously a change will always find people that don't like it, that is the nature of change. I no longer play most of GW games anymore as I don't like how they changed or I simply outgrown them except for Blood Bowl.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 02, 2020 - 22:49 Reply with quote Back to top

While I agree that you shouldn't conflate balanced and nuanced with competitive universally, there is no inherent reason why balanced and nuanced CAN'T also mean competitive. I wish they would have tried to balance, while keeping the nuances and competitiveness that bb2016 had, instead of just going off in a completely different direction.

They seem to not want to try to tackle that, which i accept it would be difficult, but they seem to be simply avoiding it entirely, and that I simply can't accept.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 03, 2020 - 02:35 Reply with quote Back to top

And I think that they actually have managed to do that. BB2016 and the version before it was terrible when teams got close to 1800TV as they only used a few skills and choices that mattered, including play-styles. The new way skill progression work is quite a game changer.

The new rules will open up the game a bit more, especially in League play and that is good. The removal of the most devastating killer skills and including more reliable fouling means that all teams can now hurt stalling in a way that was not really possible before, even at lower team values.

Giving random skills a cheaper way to use less powerful skills will introduce some interesting new play options and not every team will use the same skills all the time. It will make teams more nuanced and individual as you can tailor player roles based on their skills and you have to adjust your play around it.

The new rules will make many more teams "competitive" and fun to play and teams will feel more individual as you have to adjust to having both picked and random skills shaping your tactics.

This, in my opinion, give the game a better nuance while broadening the competitiveness of the game to more teams and configurations within teams. You will rarely see two very similar teams anymore due to how players skill up. Teams will be far less cookie cutter and as a player you will have to develop tactics based on your players in the team. You also have more control over how you develop players and those choices have consequences in cost and opportunity.

To be honest I don't see anything in the changes that is not simply going to make the game just more fun.

Exactly what made BB2016 more fun?!?

To be honest I don't see it.


Last edited by CAB on Nov 03, 2020 - 02:40; edited 1 time in total
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 03, 2020 - 02:39 Reply with quote Back to top

oh no don't get me wrong. i'm excited for the changes. but i don't think they did anything to try to address the skill balance disparity (and some of the new skills are... bad... random skills are going to be a horrible trap for many players I fear, even if there will be times when they are appropriate) or about starting roster disparity. And there was no reason not to TRY to address those two things. Dark elves, even in the range of tv that we are talking about, are still going to be better than humans. Nurgle will be weak. Why? There's no NEED for that kind of win disparity among most teams.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 03, 2020 - 02:50 Reply with quote Back to top

To be honest I don't think random skills will be horrible at all. I actually think that in most cases two situational skills are better than one chosen skill and you also will get the good skills when picking randomly as well.

Sure random probably is not good if that is the ONLY way you pick skills, even though some good players probably can run teams with ONLY random skill too, would not be surprised at all if that was the case.

I think it is way too early to be judging which teams will be better than the other at this time. The new skill progression will have a huge impact on the game now. The Human team probably are quite competitive now, even against Dark Elves. All elves was taken down a few pegs... especially when you consider the passing stat and how expensive it is to take a chosen secondary skill now. Stats increases such as Strength being quite rare now also hurt Elves more than most other teams.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 03, 2020 - 05:21 Reply with quote Back to top

ehh, my box dark elves disagree. the only stat they've rolled is agi, they don't use a runner, and they very rarely have to pass to win (usually only to win more); they've only rolled 2 doubles in the teams entire career (and the first died before the second joined them). They're still very successful, and I would argue, more successful than a human team with the same limitations.

you can play elves for a passing game, and they do get worse. But you don't have to, and for those elves, they haven't really got worse. You can do amazingly well with stats and doubles for elves, but you don't have to. And for those elves, they haven't really got worse. AND if I really want the doubles - I can just choose them. Which isn't an option right now. So I'll actually get better, even if 10k more expensive. 10k won't make up that gap.

The problem is you CAN play elves in such a way that they will be nerfed a lot. But.. you have to actively choose to play that way. If you embrace the new meta.. I simply don't see it.


for the randoms: the problem is they added skills to ALL the categories, just so there would be 12 skills per category. That's a LOT, and most of the new skills, really are NOT worth it. Yes you might get 2 skills. But I would say there are no more than.. 2 maybe 3 skills per category you WANT, and no more than 4-6 that you can make reasonable use of. That means there are probably at least 3 skills that really aren't worth it. 1/4 of all your skills that you roll not worth it? I mean yes, near the end of the season, I can absolutely see that gamble. But as a first skill near the beginning of a season? I don't think it will turn out to be cost effective.
SkittleMosaic



Joined: May 17, 2018

Post   Posted: Nov 03, 2020 - 06:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Depends on the team. I plan on doing a norse all lino all random general team and the only thing not worth 10k (I.e. fired) is shadowing IMO.
ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 03, 2020 - 06:57 Reply with quote Back to top

pielover101 wrote:
Depends on the team. I plan on doing a norse all lino all random general team and the only thing not worth 10k (I.e. fired) is shadowing IMO.


No norse in BB2020... hopefully soon, but at present, nope.
SkittleMosaic



Joined: May 17, 2018

Post   Posted: Nov 03, 2020 - 07:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Got my fingers crossed for a Teams of Legend pdf Wink
C0ddlefish



Joined: Sep 17, 2019

Post   Posted: Nov 03, 2020 - 08:26 Reply with quote Back to top

I think teams that start with a decent amount of core skills (e.g. Humans, Orcs, D.Elves with 4x block blitzers) will be fair more inclined to take random skills than say Nurgle or Chaos Renegades.

On average what do you gain now 1 skill per team per game? And that's with choosing MVP.

With 15 games and no core starting skills can you afford to gamble on them largely being random?
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 03, 2020 - 09:04 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
ehh, my box dark elves disagree. the only stat they've rolled is agi, they don't use a runner, and they very rarely have to pass to win (usually only to win more); they've only rolled 2 doubles in the teams entire career (and the first died before the second joined them). They're still very successful, and I would argue, more successful than a human team with the same limitations.

you can play elves for a passing game, and they do get worse. But you don't have to, and for those elves, they haven't really got worse. You can do amazingly well with stats and doubles for elves, but you don't have to. And for those elves, they haven't really got worse. AND if I really want the doubles - I can just choose them. Which isn't an option right now. So I'll actually get better, even if 10k more expensive. 10k won't make up that gap.

The problem is you CAN play elves in such a way that they will be nerfed a lot. But.. you have to actively choose to play that way. If you embrace the new meta.. I simply don't see it.


for the randoms: the problem is they added skills to ALL the categories, just so there would be 12 skills per category. That's a LOT, and most of the new skills, really are NOT worth it. Yes you might get 2 skills. But I would say there are no more than.. 2 maybe 3 skills per category you WANT, and no more than 4-6 that you can make reasonable use of. That means there are probably at least 3 skills that really aren't worth it. 1/4 of all your skills that you roll not worth it? I mean yes, near the end of the season, I can absolutely see that gamble. But as a first skill near the beginning of a season? I don't think it will turn out to be cost effective.


You do realise how expensive stat increases are in terms of SPP and that they still are random?!?

You also realise that secondary chosen skill will cost you 40k while a random primary only cost 10k while a player can choose about three random skills for at 30k for one single secondary skill at 40k for roughly the same SPP.

This is also about opportunity cost as well as one player will receive skills early and use them in more games etc...

I don't think that people understand how important this is in a league season that run for maybe 10 games or so before you need to redraft players. Just keeping five player from last season will cost you about 100k extra, not counting their skill increase. Keeping players two played season will cost the double that per player.

If the cap is 1300-1400 or whatever your league is going for you will not be able to keep all that many skilled players if they are too expensive.

With random skills you keep those that got the most decent skills and perhaps some chosen skill to complement them.

In my opinion both stats and secondary chosen skills will be rare and only for players that can get lot's of SPP fast, generally those that score many goals or your thrower if you pass allot.

I know that Dark Elves pass very little and there are multiple ways to play them as their players are quite expensive. I don't pass with them much either... I mean no team in Blood Bowl should pass unless they are forced to do so, at least no more than a quick pass. This goes for pretty much any team in an ideal world.
The fact still is that Elves got hit harder than most other teams but they are still very good teams. In my opinion teams have more to do with the coach than the power of the team within their tier group.


Last edited by CAB on Nov 03, 2020 - 09:39; edited 1 time in total
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