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Doofr



Joined: Nov 04, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 10, 2020 - 22:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Wolvassa wrote:

How many spp I get largely relates to how well I do in a game. Having more skills will lead to me doing better, so if my opponent and I have played a match and both got ~10 spp, the choice to spend them on suboptimal random skills or to bank them for better skills in the future becomes part of the strategy of team building.

Theoretically, I go into the second match with a skill advantage, and use that to gain more spp in that match than my opponent, gaining more skills and so on, kind of a speculate to accumulate sort of situation.


You realy think that having this random skill will make a real diff and realy increase your odds to gain more spp and so on ?

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CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 10, 2020 - 22:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Doofr wrote:

You realy think that having this random skill will make a real diff and realy increase your odds to gain more spp and so on ?


You can think of it this way... if you roll on the random skill for a Lineman and you get let's say Frenzy that will open up for many different opportunities for only 3SPP (let's say an MVP) after your first game. It might have taken this player half a season to get either another MVP or CAS to get that Block skill... let's say you get enough SPP after your sixth game in a 15 game season. So... you now have had a Frenzy player for five games you otherwise would not have. This skill only also cost you a total of 10k TV so it is not a terrible bloat either. This player are also more likely to earn CAS and gain more SPP so likley could affort to chose block at 8SPP about the time that other player have only Block, or the skill can potentially reward other players SPP you otherwise would not get due to the opportunities.

This also can make teams a bit more individualised.

You also will get really bad skills at times like Shadowing or something, but that is part of the fun. And even these skills can actually influence what an opponent does even if you only Shadow on a six or five.

If I have a Lineman who have a CAS and later get an MVP I certainly would pick either Kick or Block for that one no doubt about it.
Wolvassa



Joined: Dec 23, 2019

Post   Posted: Nov 10, 2020 - 23:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Doofr wrote:


You realy think that having this random skill will make a real diff and realy increase your odds to gain more spp and so on ?


Probably not by much to be honest, there's a lot of variables there with which skills you get, how many you have, which players get them etc, and as always coaching matters a lot. I suspect that the best coaches who could make the most of the small advantage are also less likely to be the coaches that would take the gamble.

If you showed me two teams that were otherwise the same, with no knowledge of the coaches, and one of them had three random general skills and the other had some unspent SPP, I'd back the one with the random skills to win. If I reckon they'll win, I probably also reckon they'll get a few more SPP.

I've not put too much thought or analysis into this, but say it gives you 4 more SPP 20% of the time - that's really not much, but it might be enough to offset the 'weakness' of the random skills, especially if you can keep it up for a few games. If you can make a run of wins that would have been draws or losses otherwise, you might have 60 SPP after 5 games rather than 40 you'd have had otherwise, and that could be 18 random skills, instead of 6 specific ones if you were waiting to pick. Add to that I'm only giving up 60k of inducements for those skills (plus anything I've spent of my greater winnings), and if match making is based on games played it doesn't look like a bad choice.

It's high variance, it might not be the best choice, and this relies on matchmaking being based on games played rather than TV, but I don't think the gap is as big as some people are making it out to be. Especially for third and fourth skills and teams that start with block and dodge on some players. It's probably also more relevant to smaller leagues than ranked/equivalent.
Zlefin



Joined: Apr 14, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 10, 2020 - 23:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Reading around some; I think the main thing is to only implement the necessary components when the time comes, and give more time to play with the system before implementing however we gonna do seasons.
I haven't read the leaked stuff, nor what else has been released, so it's very hard to have a good judgment on it. Even if I had read it, I'd really want to play it a bit to make sure I'm thinking about it right. Until everyone has a chance to read it fully and play with it some, it's just not gonna be feasible to have a really strong sense of the best way forward, and that won't happen until after bb2020 is actually released, then some of the changes implemented so we can playtest them. Making a proper decision on how to handle redrafting in box and/or ranked wouldn't really be feasible until say, mid 2021 (depending on how long implementation takes, hmm)

has there been info on roughly how long it'll take for stuff to get implemented into fumbbl?
ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 11, 2020 - 09:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Wolvassa wrote:
...
Looking at skill choice and how 'bad' random skills are, is that partly due to thinking about this in terms of TV based matchmaking?

How many spp I get largely relates to how well I do in a game. Having more skills will lead to me doing better, so if my opponent and I have played a match and both got ~10 spp, the choice to spend them on suboptimal random skills or to bank them for better skills in the future becomes part of the strategy of team building.

Theoretically, I go into the second match with a skill advantage, and use that to gain more spp in that match than my opponent, gaining more skills and so on, kind of a speculate to accumulate sort of situation. (The difference between a doran's start or a cull start if you will forgive a LoL analogy.) I kind of feel like the season rules are designed to set the boundaries for the power curve of teams, and the skill rules are designed to give players options for how their teams grow in that power curve, with the assumption of teams playing others that have played the same number of matches. TV based matchmaking may give better games each time, but it sort of breaks that relationship, and changes the way team growth works in a way that the designers didn't really care about.

It will also be interesting to see just how big the difference is between skills - is giving the fifth player on your team block actually twice as good as giving them an average skill from the list? The answer may be yes with things like block and dodge, and it probably depends on the team and the other skills you have, but I suspect it isn't as cut and dry as people on here make out. Even in the current rules, there is a point where the best first skill on a lineman is Kick.


We discussed (well I know I did) probably 50 pages or so ago that the new rules should have a "Match Number" match making scheduler rather than TV.

If you have played 8 games of your season and spent all your SPP's on random skills but you match up against another 8 game old team who is hoarding their SPP, they're going to get inducements.

I think people in the recent discussions that CAB has opened up is focusing on TV match making and the virtues of high or low TV. I think the mindset will need to change in terms of age of teams in that season. TV will become meaningless in match making and will only be used as a trigger for inducements. Its one reason why Stars are now cheaper.
Joe1982



Joined: Dec 31, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 11, 2020 - 10:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Wolvassa wrote:
Doofr wrote:


You realy think that having this random skill will make a real diff and realy increase your odds to gain more spp and so on ?


Probably not by much to be honest, there's a lot of variables there with which skills you get, how many you have, which players get them etc, and as always coaching matters a lot. I suspect that the best coaches who could make the most of the small advantage are also less likely to be the coaches that would take the gamble.

If you showed me two teams that were otherwise the same, with no knowledge of the coaches, and one of them had three random general skills and the other had some unspent SPP, I'd back the one with the random skills to win. If I reckon they'll win, I probably also reckon they'll get a few more SPP.

I've not put too much thought or analysis into this, but say it gives you 4 more SPP 20% of the time - that's really not much, but it might be enough to offset the 'weakness' of the random skills, especially if you can keep it up for a few games. If you can make a run of wins that would have been draws or losses otherwise, you might have 60 SPP after 5 games rather than 40 you'd have had otherwise, and that could be 18 random skills, instead of 6 specific ones if you were waiting to pick. Add to that I'm only giving up 60k of inducements for those skills (plus anything I've spent of my greater winnings), and if match making is based on games played it doesn't look like a bad choice.

It's high variance, it might not be the best choice, and this relies on matchmaking being based on games played rather than TV, but I don't think the gap is as big as some people are making it out to be. Especially for third and fourth skills and teams that start with block and dodge on some players. It's probably also more relevant to smaller leagues than ranked/equivalent.


I think random general on the first skill for undead ghouls could be a way to go. Block/Wrestle/Tackle/Sure Hands skills I would take anyway. Frenzy, follow with block and side step. Kick- worth having. Dirty player (arguably the best roll early on) follow with sneaky git. Pro - meh, but not awful. Strip Ball, follow with wrestle/Tackle. Dauntless- maybe worst roll for them, but not terrible. Fend/kick off return follow with sure hands. Not sure if I missed any, but most are very useful or good with a second skill to follow. 4 ghouls each with one of those at the beginning of a season would give you an edge, I think.
Rawlf



Joined: Jul 15, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 11, 2020 - 10:33 Reply with quote Back to top

ClayInfinity wrote:

We discussed (well I know I did) probably 50 pages or so ago that the new rules should have a "Match Number" match making scheduler rather than TV.

If you have played 8 games of your season and spent all your SPP's on random skills but you match up against another 8 game old team who is hoarding their SPP, they're going to get inducements.

I think people in the recent discussions that CAB has opened up is focusing on TV match making and the virtues of high or low TV. I think the mindset will need to change in terms of age of teams in that season. TV will become meaningless in match making and will only be used as a trigger for inducements. Its one reason why Stars are now cheaper.


The matchmaking is an integral part of the new rules, just like skills and development and seasonal redrafts are. And all parts are fine tuned to interact with each other in a defined way.

Replicating the rules and using TV matchmaking instead of a league-like system is like recreating a race car with an exact copy of the engine and the gears etc but driving it in a sand desert instead of in a circuit.

It would be a very different experience, and it would not be the fault of the rules / the car.

In a TV matchmaking system, you would never pick a skill of which you are not 100% convinced it will carry its weight. Why would you? Your team would be better without it. In a league system, you have to be prepared to face all kind of TV differences, so the skill meta is completely different.

Also, TV matchaking would render the whole inducement system that takes up such a huge space in the rules obsolete. I am pretty sure that is not how it is intended.
dabassman



Joined: Feb 17, 2006

Post   Posted: Nov 11, 2020 - 10:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Maybe this was mentioned already, I don't remember, but why don't we make 3 different leagues, with low (135k), mid (160k) and high(200k) caps? At the end of a season, each team can decide in which league it will play the next one after the according redraft.
After a couple of months we see whether those high TV leagues are really unbalanced with the new rules (or whether the low TV teams all look the same) and we adjust the cap.
stej



Joined: Jan 05, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 11, 2020 - 12:38 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't think you would want to fracture the playerbase even more.
As an alternative, why not start the TV redraft cap at say 1800TV for all existing teams, then reduce it by 150TV each season? (Numbers chosen here are just to illustrate the idea)
That way, the bigger teams will get to slowly adapt over time.
Let the new inducements fill the gap
dabassman



Joined: Feb 17, 2006

Post   Posted: Nov 11, 2020 - 12:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Because then the same will happen what a lot of coaches are afraid of: they will loose their precious high TV teams, and "team building" will be gone. It will just happen more slowly...XD.
I don't see 3 leagues as a big fracture of the player base compared to now, as you can switch between them. Now we have 2 "leagues", box and ranked, and in ranked a lot of possible matches never take place as you can avoid teams, because of a high TV gap or whatever reason.
dolphinandrew



Joined: May 09, 2017

Post   Posted: Nov 11, 2020 - 13:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Rawlf wrote:
And all parts are fine tuned to interact with each other in a defined way.


That doesn't really sound much like a GW rules set Smile

I kid.

Mostly.

Ok, 50-50.
ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 11, 2020 - 15:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Rawlf wrote:
ClayInfinity wrote:

We discussed (well I know I did) probably 50 pages or so ago that the new rules should have a "Match Number" match making scheduler rather than TV.

If you have played 8 games of your season and spent all your SPP's on random skills but you match up against another 8 game old team who is hoarding their SPP, they're going to get inducements.

I think people in the recent discussions that CAB has opened up is focusing on TV match making and the virtues of high or low TV. I think the mindset will need to change in terms of age of teams in that season. TV will become meaningless in match making and will only be used as a trigger for inducements. Its one reason why Stars are now cheaper.


The matchmaking is an integral part of the new rules, just like skills and development and seasonal redrafts are. And all parts are fine tuned to interact with each other in a defined way.

Replicating the rules and using TV matchmaking instead of a league-like system is like recreating a race car with an exact copy of the engine and the gears etc but driving it in a sand desert instead of in a circuit.

It would be a very different experience, and it would not be the fault of the rules / the car.

In a TV matchmaking system, you would never pick a skill of which you are not 100% convinced it will carry its weight. Why would you? Your team would be better without it. In a league system, you have to be prepared to face all kind of TV differences, so the skill meta is completely different.

Also, TV matchaking would render the whole inducement system that takes up such a huge space in the rules obsolete. I am pretty sure that is not how it is intended.


Exactly. Thats why I am an advocate for match making on Number of Games Played not TV. This was discussed 50 pages ago.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 11, 2020 - 15:15 Reply with quote Back to top

ClayInfinity wrote:

Exactly. Thats why I am an advocate for match making on Number of Games Played not TV. This was discussed 50 pages ago.


Matchmaking around games played per seasons seem to be the most interesting way as that will "probably" balance the new levelling system the best.

It also change a bit how you approach every game and it also increase the importance of having a bench of players.

In TV matchmaking you usually see very lean teams to optimise skill costs. In BB2020 you probably could even see player just take random skills and kick players that don't get something you like, that really don't work so well it you are matched per game rather than TV.
gamelsetlmatch



Joined: Mar 05, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 11, 2020 - 16:42 Reply with quote Back to top

I havent been keeping up on all of whats been discussed but enough to get a sense that there is just too much unknown about how things will be
My two cents are oriented around what happens once a 'season' is over
If you are in a competitive division, shouldn't you automatically be put into to some form of tourney ..will there be 'recovery games' between seasons
If you start off in a RRR, should those games count toward your season?

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DrDeath



Joined: Mar 27, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 11, 2020 - 17:01 Reply with quote Back to top

I like dabassman's suggestion, that would be another good solution. And while you don't want to fragment the playerbase too much between too many divisions, there has been an argument for merging Ranked and Blackbox before anyway.

I'm sure that will divide people too, but for me Ranked just seems to have too many farmed teams, cherry-picking and coaches endlessly sitting on matchfinder - matchmaking in Blackbox is fairer and less faff. Maybe merge both divisions, then divide the teams between 'low', 'medium' and 'high' season brackets as dabassman suggests, with an automated matchmaker system? Or if that doesn't get enough activations (after all the Blackbox matchmaker needs 4 coaches to make a draw), then settle for 'low' and 'high' divisions?
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