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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2020 - 14:52 Reply with quote Back to top

I know. My point was that a hard cap maybe could have been better and simpler than the redraft, if it forces to go back to 1350.
We lack the new Chaos, Nurgle and Vampire rosters to be sure, but if the traditional design of "strong low TV teams not needing lot of development" and "weak low TV teams strong with development" is mantained, there could be racial variety issues, I'm afraid.
tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2020 - 14:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Matt, you build a team, and put it in a tournament once it's built, if you want, or you strip it down to the absolute minimum to function and go build it again.

That's Bloodbowl now, is for four years really. Fumbbl just skipped it because it was a big change. And now there's bigger changes that need it because otherwise everyone will just build perfect half price teams by cycling players until the right randoms come up.

Players don't play forever, they play a while and then they want more money or they retire. So it doesn't matter if you get good cheap randoms on someone because they want more money next season anyway, they stop being cheap.

Like, fumbbl can either support the new rules, or ... keep playing this half-LRB6 thing without all the stuff that stopped LRB6 teams getting stupidly big, except they'll be even bigger and stupider without seasons this time around.


Sure, your Chaos team needed to get to 2000 TV to be monsters, so they played 15 games and bought cheap skills and ended up with some weird players and a dodgy two-headed fast baller goat, and a weird new piledriver DP fouler, and then you took your 2000 TV chaos into a tournament and got the thing on your bio for winning it with monster chaos against teams that didn't have everything they wanted because everyone's in the same boat.

And then everyone, they trim down to the bare minimums and go do it again. That's bloodbowl now. You start again.

--

So if you just want to win all the time, yeah, pick a tier 1 team, good starting skills and good development path, because you'll be starting over regularly. I hope.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2020 - 14:57 Reply with quote Back to top

I see, but I'm not talking about tournaments, I'm interested in TV MM.
Facing a small subset of races could make my games boring after a while.
I know because I already experienced that in BB1, where low TV was Dwarf spam, mid TV was Orc spam, high TV was Chaos spam.
Really boring after a while. Very Happy
I want to win, yes, but I don't want to have a narrowed down selection of races, some days I like to play the odd Nurgle game just for change's sake, and facing different races too.
Looks like the playable races will be those strong at low TV.
Not saying FUMBBL should not stick to new rules, just they seem not very good in my opinion, considering how FUMBBL MM environment works.
mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2020 - 15:06
FUMBBL Staff
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tussock wrote:
Matt, you build a team, and put it in a tournament once it's built, if you want, or you strip it down to the absolute minimum to function and go build it again.

That's Bloodbowl now, is for four years really. Fumbbl just skipped it because it was a big change. And now there's bigger changes that need it because otherwise everyone will just build perfect half price teams by cycling players until the right randoms come up.

Players don't play forever, they play a while and then they want more money or they retire. So it doesn't matter if you get good cheap randoms on someone because they want more money next season anyway, they stop being cheap.

Like, fumbbl can either support the new rules, or ... keep playing this half-LRB6 thing without all the stuff that stopped LRB6 teams getting stupidly big, except they'll be even bigger and stupider without seasons this time around.


Sure, your Chaos team needed to get to 2000 TV to be monsters, so they played 15 games and bought cheap skills and ended up with some weird players and a dodgy two-headed fast baller goat, and a weird new piledriver DP fouler, and then you took your 2000 TV chaos into a tournament and got the thing on your bio for winning it with monster chaos against teams that didn't have everything they wanted because everyone's in the same boat.

And then everyone, they trim down to the bare minimums and go do it again. That's bloodbowl now. You start again.

--

So if you just want to win all the time, yeah, pick a tier 1 team, good starting skills and good development path, because you'll be starting over regularly. I hope.


I agree with this, and it’s very well put. Blood bowl has changed and Fumbbl will move with it, like it moved from LRB4 to CRP and some people didn’t like that change.

A couple of other points:
I feel a hard TV cap on development feels a lot more restrictive than a cap on rebuy and then allowing development for x number of games. It probably works out similarly, but capping development means you’ll hit a ceiling and keep playing for no gain. That feels wrong.

I don’t think the TV range we’re taking about is ‘low TV’. It wouldn’t be considered so in any other BB community. Teams will, for most of the season, be in the 1500 range which is mid-TV.

I certainly don’t think there’s concern about a lack of diversity from people not picking Chaos or Nurgs. Chaos and Nurgle are 2 of the most played races. Even if the hyper min maxers move on to other things there will still be plenty of players for these races.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2020 - 15:09 Reply with quote Back to top

My hard cap idea has no games limit, unlike season redraft, so you don't keep playing for no gain: the gain is keeping on playing in a TV range your team is effective.
You can play as many games as you want, just, you can't go over the TV hard cap.


Last edited by MattDakka on Aug 09, 2020 - 15:10; edited 1 time in total
mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2020 - 15:10
FUMBBL Staff
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So once you hit it, what are you gaining by playing? Your team just stays static?

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Mr. J's LRB7 / Forum


Last edited by mister__joshua on Aug 09, 2020 - 15:12; edited 1 time in total
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2020 - 15:11 Reply with quote Back to top

You play for winning in a range where you can do realistically do it and have fun with that race (not necessarily killer Chaos or Nurgle, it could be Vampires, not all high TV teams are killers). Smile
Better than being pushed back to 1350 and playing where you don't have reason to do it with certain races.
By the way, I used 2000 TV hard cap as an example, it could be 1800 or 1900.

A Chaos team can be static at 2000, if the alternative is going back to 1350 then growing to 1700 rinse and repeat.
Also, no team is really static, because injuries can happen.


Last edited by MattDakka on Aug 09, 2020 - 16:37; edited 3 times in total
mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2020 - 15:14
FUMBBL Staff
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I don’t like that idea at all, sorry. Static teams should remain for NAF tourneys

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2020 - 15:16 Reply with quote Back to top

NAF tourneys favour a small subset of races.
Chaos compared to Wood Elves for example, is way weaker in NAF format.
This is why you see top tier 1 races more represented in NAF tourneys, unless there is some extra rules forcing to play weaker races or giving bonus to certain weaker races (such as extra skills).
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2020 - 15:52 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
NAF tourneys favour a small subset of races.
Chaos compared to Wood Elves for example, is way weaker in NAF format.
This is why you see top tier 1 races more represented in NAF tourneys, unless there is some extra rules forcing to play weaker races or giving bonus to certain weaker races (such as extra skills).


you aren't wrong, but I look at it this way - the new meta has different races that are the best. The old meta was high tv elves and high tv cpomb, if this new meta is humans and black orcs dominating for exmample then thats ok (to be clear this is not a prediction). Its nice to see it mixed up for the first time in 27 years. As the best teams over the last 27 years hasnt changed.

Mind you i think dwarves are gonna be amazing in this edition... so there is that problem haha

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2020 - 15:53 Reply with quote Back to top

sure but.. why do we need a meta where any given team is best at all? i mean i have no idea how the new ruleset will shake out, but my ideal is that 90% of teams are within 90% of the winning rate of each other, over 90% of tv ranges. (and yes i think a lot of the new changes will move us closer to this meta, so i have high hopes for changes to teams like chaos/nurgle that are particularly bad when they start compared to high tv, as well as dwarves/amazons that are particularly good when they start)
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2020 - 16:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
Can we have an option to have this new scheduler that is being created usable in league. I would very much like this for Secret League Open.


Cyanide allows any league to have a scheduler. Jus' sayin'. Wink

How much effort would it be to do?

I have a bad feeling that it could be short-lived due to being ruined by cheese monkeys.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2020 - 16:05 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't think it would be ruined by cheese monkeys, I think it would show which teams are properly efficient and which have inefficiencies in the roster design (whether directly due to roster design, or due to how the ruleset and things like skills and synergy work, and how that impacts those roster designs), much as the box scheduler did with the core teams like like 1 bull no mino 0-1 re-roll chorfs in the clawpomb era.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2020 - 16:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
I don't think it would be ruined by cheese monkeys, I think it would show which teams are properly efficient and which have inefficiencies in the roster design (whether directly due to roster design, or due to how the ruleset and things like skills and synergy work, and how that impacts those roster designs), much as the box scheduler did with the core teams like like 1 bull no mino 0-1 re-roll chorfs in the clawpomb era.


That sounds a lot like "ruined by cheese monkeys" Wink
Especially with the smaller userbase.

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ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 09, 2020 - 16:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Read up to page 5, then was offline for a bit and now i am commenting on p13 or so..

I think Christer's 2nd proposal makes great sense from my experience from the SWL (where seasons have been run for some time).

May I suggest:

Teams that get 12 wins get a cap bonus of say +100k

Teams that get say 10 wins get cap bonus of +50k. Means if you do well, you get rewarded.

Given the Match Making is TV based, why be afraid of some higher TV.

And is there any notes on the formal designation of Tiers in the leaks? Does it have an in game impact? Will Tier 1 vs Tier 2 teams imply more inducements for example?

Also, some pages back, Mr Joshua mentioned season records (and awards) be maintained in a team page... this is an absolute brilliant idea and a must.
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