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ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 16, 2020 - 07:56 Reply with quote Back to top

uzkulak wrote:
Sounds like the new rules will lead to less stalling and time management as it will be comparatively harder to cage for extended periods. Sounds like a good change to me, but I'm sure some people will have a different view.


With the examples above shown by Grod, this is the game changer. Stalling will become incredibly dangerous unless you near pitch clear the opposition and wood elf coaches who are perhaps lamenting the nerf to Leap need to realise that their entire team are now mini-wardancers.

Defensive tactics now need a complete rethink... BB2020 is a completely new game and TD's will become much more prevalent. This then means the spp equations and rate of skill ups accelerate and hence this impacts the entire other debate about TV and TV caps and season redrafts.

I dont think we really have fully started to comprehend the whole system of BB2020 but I think it all starts with this jump mechanic.
Frowny



Joined: Apr 27, 2020

Post   Posted: Aug 18, 2020 - 17:37 Reply with quote Back to top

Can you only jump once per turn? It would still be strong but then elves can't flood the backfield over a downed loss.
ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 18, 2020 - 17:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Frowny wrote:
Can you only jump once per turn? It would still be strong but then elves can't flood the backfield over a downed loss.


Anyone can jump at any time...
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 18, 2020 - 19:47 Reply with quote Back to top

This is the final nail in the coffin for the Ziggurat defense. Both the "trap" formation with diagonal players to protect the rear one, and the idea of using trash to clog up the middle are rendered obsolete by these rules, and there really is no such thing as good sideline defense anymore, given the 0-2 players in the wide zones rules. Except maybe elves can defend elves by putting Side Step in the wide zone. Everyone else just has to maul them into an early score and needs Nuffle's help to be competitive.

Congratulations, GW. You tried to sink Blood Bowl by not supporting it, but that failed. Maybe this opposite tack, "supporting" it with game-breaking rules changes, will finally kill this monster.

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Veni, Vidi, Risi
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 26, 2020 - 16:27 Reply with quote Back to top

To be honest I don't see how jumping will really stop stalling in the way that caging will be less viable using a strong and slow team. Tight cages will still be strong and you will have to deal with them roughly the same as before.

Jumping will make it easier to dodge into a loose cage or screen which in my opinion is good since those kind of cages can be very difficult to deal with against agile and fast opponents.

The tight cage is not too difficult to deal with, usually as the players in such cages are either slow or low agility or both.

If the offensive team have no real intention to score then it is at a seriously disadvantage in player positioning, especially if you are forced to use tight cages who are difficult to move in a coherent manner without loosing cohesion.

Jumping will open up opportunities for a defensive team to put more pressure on the offensive team and that I see as a positive change. At the same time it also make it harder to stop an offensive drive to get through a screen which also is good as it opens up the game on both offence and defence.

The fact that bodies on the ground don't block movement anymore is really great for the game overall.
Frowny



Joined: Apr 27, 2020

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 20:38 Reply with quote Back to top

They don't block movement anymore for a small number of high agility players, but they do for slower less agile teams. I do agree though that this will improve elves a lot, to compensate for their loss in passing.

I kinda like the passing stat. Makes throwers more interesting and unique, and gave them room to buff some non-elf throwers without just making them better runners.
DrDeath



Joined: Mar 27, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 21:05 Reply with quote Back to top

I strongly disagree that it will be harder to cage now - tight cages will be even harder to break. An elf will only be able to leap into one on a 5 now, or 4 with leap. Once there it is probably a - 2d block due to guard. Those are much worse odds than before, and it was well balanced before so why change it? This was a poorly considered change in my opinion, you need to keep some proper strategies to break a cage. Nerf to Break Tackle makes that avenue worse too. Passing got worse too. I fear we are going to see lots of slow unstoppable grinds now and few turnovers. Grinding bash teams like dwarfs will do too well (peculiarly they have not really been nerfed either unlike other teams, deathroller even got better), I feel we will see lots of those and the diversity of play styles will be greatly impoverished. I hate to be doom and gloom but that is how I see it :/ Jervis where art thou...
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2020 - 22:51 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
Congratulations, GW. You tried to sink Blood Bowl by not supporting it, but that failed. Maybe this opposite tack, "supporting" it with game-breaking rules changes, will finally kill this monster.

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

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CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 11, 2020 - 21:52 Reply with quote Back to top

I just played a few games of the new rules today with mainly Dwarves versus Elves and I can tell that caging still is pretty inefficient as it takes way to many players and the opponent can just disect the other ones of you try that. Add to that you can use multiple RR per turn and you can do some crazy shit... even with Dwarves.

With my Dwarves I could move as elves for two turns with my entire team... I never seen a Dwarf team run that fast... Wink

I even jumped over downed elves to place a Guard Blitzer behind a few fallen elves trapping them.

In my opinion using theory is far from what I see in reality. Elves jump into cages just fine. If you have 4-5 re-rolls you usually have two turns where you can do some really crazy moves. Jumping into a cage on a 4+ is still a 75% success with a RR (half of the time you don't even need to use one), dodging in is 55% chance to succeed... add to that you can use multiple RR to take advantage or setting up the cage break and it will open things up.

Jumping is also interesting as you can jump over players you just knocked over... this become even more pronounced when you are pressured which will happen sooner or later.

making five man cage means you have little players to move the cage forward in and efficient manner. As it is harder to screen against elves now... Dwarves in particular can be forced into a tight cage which is a problem for a slow team, especially when it is harder to screen so the opponent can easier divide your team and get behind you.

Be prepared to have Skaven Gutter runners run rampant behind your screen... leap in a strip ball or wrestle your ball carrier. Good luck if they have Kick skill and screen them effectively... Wink

Elves have the same problems... anyone can jump through their screen too, even agility 3+ can get players through and put pressure on the ball carrier through an elf screen. You will see more re-rolls as re-rolls now is a great enabler for more crazy shit... Wink

Offence can be a pain now unless you manage to quickly screen efficiently or you can be locked down as a bash team.

The fact that you can "potentially" use multiple RR in a turn is fundamentally changing the way you approach a specific string of turns and you can plan much more insane plays than you otherwise would. If just enables you more and change the way you approach a specific turn and what you imagine it can turn out.

Do you have Pro skill on your Orc Blitzer... that is a good chance to jump throw a screen to start splitting the opponents cage from the rest of the team.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 11, 2020 - 22:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Ninja Dwarfs, we are doomed! Shocked
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 11, 2020 - 22:31 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Ninja Dwarfs, we are doomed! Shocked


I would not get that far... Wink

But there is a clear different in mindset you plan a turn when you have the potential to use more than one RR that is hard to explain unless you experience it... these were just my first few games using that new rule and it was interesting.
Malmir



Joined: May 20, 2008

Post   Posted: Dec 11, 2020 - 22:41 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB wrote:
I just played a few games of the new rules today with mainly Dwarves versus Elves and I can tell that caging still is pretty inefficient as it takes way to many players and the opponent can just disect the other ones of you try that. Add to that you can use multiple RR per turn and you can do some crazy shit... even with Dwarves.

With my Dwarves I could move as elves for two turns with my entire team... I never seen a Dwarf team run that fast... Wink

I even jumped over downed elves to place a Guard Blitzer behind a few fallen elves trapping them.

In my opinion using theory is far from what I see in reality. Elves jump into cages just fine. If you have 4-5 re-rolls you usually have two turns where you can do some really crazy moves. Jumping into a cage on a 4+ is still a 75% success with a RR (half of the time you don't even need to use one), dodging in is 55% chance to succeed... add to that you can use multiple RR to take advantage or setting up the cage break and it will open things up.

Jumping is also interesting as you can jump over players you just knocked over... this become even more pronounced when you are pressured which will happen sooner or later.

making five man cage means you have little players to move the cage forward in and efficient manner. As it is harder to screen against elves now... Dwarves in particular can be forced into a tight cage which is a problem for a slow team, especially when it is harder to screen so the opponent can easier divide your team and get behind you.

Be prepared to have Skaven Gutter runners run rampant behind your screen... leap in a strip ball or wrestle your ball carrier. Good luck if they have Kick skill and screen them effectively... Wink

Elves have the same problems... anyone can jump through their screen too, even agility 3+ can get players through and put pressure on the ball carrier through an elf screen. You will see more re-rolls as re-rolls now is a great enabler for more crazy shit... Wink

Offence can be a pain now unless you manage to quickly screen efficiently or you can be locked down as a bash team.

The fact that you can "potentially" use multiple RR in a turn is fundamentally changing the way you approach a specific string of turns and you can plan much more insane plays than you otherwise would. If just enables you more and change the way you approach a specific turn and what you imagine it can turn out.

Do you have Pro skill on your Orc Blitzer... that is a good chance to jump throw a screen to start splitting the opponents cage from the rest of the team.


To quote the laughing policeman, 'Hahahahahahahahhahahahahahaha, hahahahahahahahahahahhahaha, hahahahahahahahahahaahhaah, hahahahahahahahahahahahahah. You need to be more inventive; you're losing your edge.
Dutchlife



Joined: Jan 02, 2020

Post   Posted: Dec 11, 2020 - 23:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Book specifies you can only jump over prone or knocked down players so can't jump through a screen if people are standing. Need strictly leap for that.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 11, 2020 - 23:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Dutchlife wrote:
Book specifies you can only jump over prone or knocked down players so can't jump through a screen if people are standing. Need strictly leap for that.


You knock down a player beside the player standing behind and now you can jump over the prone player and negate one dodge, sometimes even two dodges depending on how other players are positioned.

In other cases you can gain movement you otherwise would not get as your own players and subsequently opposing players are in the way.
C0ddlefish



Joined: Sep 17, 2019

Post   Posted: Dec 12, 2020 - 00:00 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm trying to visualise when jumping over a downed player will be any better than just dodging round him/her because jump still carriers the same TZ modifiers. It seems to be useful for the odd occasion where your entirely boxed in by players but little more.

I may need someone who understands it properly to draw me some sketches Confused

Edit: didn't see CABs reply. Knock us up a sketch to explain - please

Edit 2: got my head around it in think. As mentioned later effectively there are some scenario where it allows you to miss one dodge in a chain of dodges


Last edited by C0ddlefish on Dec 12, 2020 - 16:32; edited 1 time in total
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