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Frowny



Joined: Apr 27, 2020

Post   Posted: Sep 10, 2021 - 02:53 Reply with quote Back to top

And the team hooligan- cloudburster, running pass, multiple block, safe hands, shadowing, strong arm, arm bar and pile-driver for the lose

Also, I'm just realizing how terrible most of the passing skills are. Just incredibly narrow on so many levels. I also realized that might be too many skills for a single player, but it also doesn't matter because they are still terrible.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Sep 10, 2021 - 03:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah, passing skills being chopped up and spread out like they were make them really...uhg.

I really dont think I like random skills on their own though. I need to do more playing and testing before strong opinions but taking skills one at a time as you get them hasn't been a net positive for me on any team.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 10, 2021 - 12:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Played some games with BB2020 rules.
I guess that the right route is choosing a primary skill on positionals, and taking a random skill (or not taking any skill at all to prevent bloat) on a cheap fodder lino, such as a Zombie, Thrall, Hobgoblin, Norse lino (who, starting with Block, can afford to take some random General skills).
Positionals are too expensive, unlike fodder linos, to fire and replace them if the random skill is not a good one.
Dwarf Blockers are an exception, because, although they are "linos", they can be considered positionals due to Block, Tackle and G, S access, so I would pick primary skills on them, at least the first two (Guard, MB).
Throwers/Runners look like Leader caddies. With 15 game-long Season it's hard to get more than 1-2 skills on them and Passing skills required to have a very reliable passing game are too many, not to say that Wildly Inaccurate makes passing more risky.
The new Kick-Off events are indeed better and being able to use more than 1 rr per turn is very useful.
Multiple rr helps teams lacking starting core blocking skills, such as Chaos or Lizardmen.
Maybe it was a typo in the rulebook but it is a positive change, with practical impact on games.
Overall BB2020 is quite enjoyable but too much "vanilla" for my taste.
I mean, high TV 2000 was not balanced, very low TV is boring, I guess a in-between solution would have been the best one.
Playing in 1400-1500 range would allow more freedom to build the team and more players' customization.
The skill up system still looks to me like overcomplicating a quite good skill up system. They could have just made stat freaks more expensive (by increasing the stat cost, for example: +MA, 40 TV; +AG 60; +ST 80) and cap the MA to 9.
The random skill system doesn't make sense, unless teams are playing in a very short league (7 games or so). With 15-game Season picking skills on positionals is clearly better.
Also, another consideration is that the random skill system gives faster level ups at the expense of picking the skill.
In a perpetual MM league like on FUMBBL teams are not matched by games played, like in a private league, therefore there is no the same advantage in randomizing the skills.
A 15 game-old team with carefully picked skills could challenge a 10 game-old team with random skills, with same TV but less efficiency, unlike in a private league.
Mind, I don't dismiss the idea of random skills in BB, in my opinion would be nice if every player had to randomize the skills, because that would require some coach's skill to find a use for that player, but a random skill system works if everybody must get random skills (maybe rolling 2 random skills and choosing 1 of them, for example).
If you can pick a skill with a bit more SPPs, this option is better almost always.
After all, with Season Redraft the players are not going to get many skills, therefore they need to pick just 1-2, so there is not great difference in SPPs cost from randomizing them.


Last edited by MattDakka on Sep 12, 2021 - 00:39; edited 2 times in total
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Sep 10, 2021 - 14:49 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm not sure if this thought makes sense but I will throw it out there.

Agent fees tempt me to go almost all linemen and all random skills on the strongest teams when playing in the competitive division. This is especially true because match ups will be based on TV. Saving TV on each skill looks tasty as you plan to just play the lowest TV possible while getting as many skills as possible.

Think of running a dwarf team with 2 runners and the rest are linemen. Block first on the runners then random skills on the entire team. At 10k, strength skills are a bargain. Being forced to play at a low TV is a boon.

The same could be said of a few other teams, but Dwarfs may benefit most from the strategy.

Maybe CDs too. 6 dwarfs with randoms,2 bulls taking block first, Mino going all random strength. 2-3 Hobos that get recycled.

Norse with 1 yheti can opener saving for block, 1-2 runners looking for blodge, and all linemen taking randoms.

Undead and necro running blodging ghouls while keeping and skilling wights with strength at 10k each and zombies to taste.

Wood elves just skill your wardancers and perhaps a catcher. Recycle everything else.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 10, 2021 - 17:49 Reply with quote Back to top

The fact is, if your Dwarf or Chorf gets Multiple Block yes, the random skill is cheaper but useless and he will lack Guard and before you get it you will play some games without Guard.
You can fire and replace him but you could lack the gold and you waste the earned SPPs on him as well. 70k is not really cheap.
Guard is too important on Dwarfs and Chorfs, I don't think I would risk to get a crappy S skill.
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Sep 11, 2021 - 21:06 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
The fact is, if your Dwarf or Chorf gets Multiple Block yes, the random skill is cheaper but useless and he will lack Guard and before you get it you will play some games without Guard.
You can fire and replace him but you could lack the gold and you waste the earned SPPs on him as well. 70k is not really cheap.
Guard is too important on Dwarfs and Chorfs, I don't think I would risk to get a crappy S skill.


Play your season with rookies. Then random skill. Fire those that don't get something you like. You are stronger for the next season and your SPP has hardly moved. Rookie dwarfs do very well against other rookie teams. As they grow, you grow them with Guard, MB, and SF. If you are willing to play an almost entirely rookie team you will do well and each skill you keep is cheaper than it would have been in previous editions.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Sep 12, 2021 - 00:34 Reply with quote Back to top

ICYMI https://fumbbl.com/p/blog?c=mrt1212&id=23856

A little dabbling with Random Mutations on my first attempt.
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 14, 2021 - 13:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Kondor wrote:
Play your season with rookies. Then random skill. Fire those that don't get something you like. You are stronger for the next season and your SPP has hardly moved. Rookie dwarfs do very well against other rookie teams. As they grow, you grow them with Guard, MB, and SF. If you are willing to play an almost entirely rookie team you will do well and each skill you keep is cheaper than it would have been in previous editions.

Though with the agency fees are they really better?

_________________
“A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.”
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Sep 14, 2021 - 15:14 Reply with quote Back to top

garyt1 wrote:
Kondor wrote:
Play your season with rookies. Then random skill. Fire those that don't get something you like. You are stronger for the next season and your SPP has hardly moved. Rookie dwarfs do very well against other rookie teams. As they grow, you grow them with Guard, MB, and SF. If you are willing to play an almost entirely rookie team you will do well and each skill you keep is cheaper than it would have been in previous editions.

Though with the agency fees are they really better?


Yes if you do not have tournaments as a goal. For a tournament you want as many of the big 7 skills that you can get. (Block, Dodge, Guard, Mighty Blow, Tackle, Claw, Side-Step). I would argue you probably don't want to risk taking almost any random skills.

If you want to win games in a perpetual league, agency fees are largely irrelevant. Match-making is done based on TV. The agency fees just mean you will be playing against other low TV teams. As such you will want as many of the 7 as you can get at the best TV bargain. At 10TV each, other second tier skills are also acceptable if you have the gold to rehire them.

In this case, if you have access to Block, or Dodge on a primary skill you should probably save for those every time. In many cases, it will also make sense to save for Guard or Mighty Blow on players that can take those as primary skills.

However, on teams that are competitive at low TV, I would argue that random skills are the way to go on most players. You will be rebuying much of the team in 15 games so why hoard the SPP? Roll the randoms and keep the players you like at a lower TV than your competitors.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 14, 2021 - 15:31 Reply with quote Back to top

You should be more specific. For example, both Imperial Nobility and Norse are low TV teams, but, while you can afford to randomize G skills on Norse Linemen, randomizing skills (or even taking skills) on Imperial Retainer Linemen is not worth the risk and TV (or even possible, if you consider you have to replace the players, and IN is quite expensive and IN linos are worse than Norse linemen and more fragile because they lack Block).
AV 9 teams have tougher players so it can be worth to store the SPPs and spend them later. Example: I banked 12 SPPs (due to him getting 3 MVPs) on an Orc Lino and picked Guard. Guard is better than 3 randomized G skills on a Line Orc.
On a Dwarf Blocker I would have picked Guard and then MB, instead (I know, it's 14 SPPs, but you get what I mean, I would have not banked the SPPs on the Blocker, I would have spent them asap to take Guard).
On a Goblin with 6 SPPs I randomize a G skill and fish for either Block or Sure Hands, otherwise I fire him (because he's cheap and he has poor Primary skill access).
So, the debate requires context: race, players, Season length, perpetual MM or private league.
So far, I'm doing well by picking Primary skills on my Orc Blitzers and Big Uns and randomizing the Goblin skill at 6 SPPs (if no Sure Hands or Block, cycle).
Tried the Orc Thrower, he absolutely needs On The Ball (otherwise he risks to spend half of the drive just to carry the ball past the half line), but he lacks speed and his passing is bad even with Cannoneer, so I fired him and now I employ a Goblin as ball carrier. He doesn't even has Animosity, which is nice, and by taking Primary Skills he's potentially faster than any other Orc.
The Thrower could take Leader but, considering he will have to be fired with the Redraft and that he's bad as Runner and as Passer I think it's better not to use him at all.
To be useful Orc Throwers should have cheaper Passing skills (both in terms of SPPs necessary to acquire them and of TV.).


Last edited by MattDakka on Sep 14, 2021 - 17:44; edited 2 times in total
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Sep 14, 2021 - 15:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Look at it this way. Look at a dwarf runner. I save to get Block and Dodge. It costs me 60 TV and I don't remember how many SPP. (20?)

So, just looking at the TV. Would you rather have a blodging dwarf runner, or one with a random 6 of the following? Block, Dauntless, DP, Fend, Frenzy, Kick, Pro, Shadowing, Strip Ball, Tackle, Wrestle. Realistically, I would probably save and take block first at 20 TV and then you would have 4 other randoms. On that list, I think the worst possible combination would be Block/Shadow/Wrestle/DP/Kick. However, if my randoms started looking anything like that, I would rehire a new runner.

The rest of the team is completely different. with most of the team, you are likely to only get 2-3 skills before you fire them since they just won't skill up quickly. I'd go all in on randoms there. At the end of season one keep anyone that got guard, MB, or Stand Firm. Cycle players that get Pile Driver or Multi Block. Keep others for an additional season as gold allows. If they don't get Guard, MB, or Stand Firm by the end of season 2 recycle them for season 3.

In any case, I don't think I would ever pay the 40TV for a secondary skill even if it is Dodge or Diving Tackle.
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Sep 14, 2021 - 15:43 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
You should be more specific. For example, both Imperial Nobility and Norse are low TV teams, but, while you can afford to randomize G skills on Norse Linemen, randomizing skills (or even taking skills) on Imperial Retainer Linemen is not worth the risk and TV (or even possible, if you consider you have to replace the players, and IN is quite expensive and IN linos are worse than Norse linemen and more fragile because they lack Block).
AV 9 teams have tougher players so it can be worth to store the SPPs and spend them later. Example: I banked 12 SPPs (due to him getting MVPs) on an Orc Lino and picked Guard. Guard is better than 3 randomized G skills on a Line Orc.
On a Dwarf Blocker I would have picked Guard and then MB, instead (I know, it's 14 SPPs, but you get what I mean, I would have not banked the SPPs on the Blocker, I would have spent them asap to take Guard).
On a Goblin with 6 SPPs I randomize a G skill and fish for either Block or Sure Hands, otherwise I fire him (because he's cheap and he has poor Primary skill access).
So, the debate requires context: race, players, Season length, perpetual MM or private league.
So far, I'm doing well by picking Primary skills on my Orc Blitzers and Big Uns and randomizing the Goblin skill at 6 SPPs (if no Sure Hands or Block, cycle).
Tried the Orc Thrower, he absolutely needs On The Ball (otherwise he risks to spend half of the drive just to carry the ball past the half line), but he lacks speed and his passing is bad even with Cannoneer, so I fired him and now I employ a Goblin as ball carrier. He doesn't even has Animosity, which is nice, and by taking Primary Skills he's potentially faster than any other Orc.
The Thrower could take Leader but, considering he will have to be fired with the Redraft and that he's bad as Runner and as Passer I think it's better not to use him at all.
To be useful Orc Throwers should have cheaper Passing skills (both in terms of SPPs necessary to acquire them and of TV.).


This is true. Save for Block, and Dodge every time as a primary roll. (almost) Save for Guard and Mighty Blow as a matter of taste on a primary roll. But if you are willing to play at a lower TV, randomize for Guard and Mighty Blow and be willing to recycle if you don't get it in your first two rolls.


Last edited by Kondor on Sep 14, 2021 - 15:44; edited 1 time in total
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 14, 2021 - 15:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes, to take Blodge on a Dwarf Runner you need 6 SPPs (to buy Block) and then 14 for Dodge or 12 SPPs (to buy Dodge at first level up) and then 8 (to buy Block).

I would pick Block on the Dwarf Runner then I could randomize the Secondary skill (from either Agility or Strength) with 8 SPPs: if it's nice I keep it, if it's bad I just cycle him.
I could randomize a Strength skill, not an Agility one, because ST skills are generally better. Also, Strong Arm and Thick Skull are excluded from the Strength skill list.
If the Runner gets Guard I could keep him, Break Tackle would make him dodge 2+ once, and with multiple rrs per turn Dodge is not as important.
Stand Firm could be kept to prevent surfs.

Otherwise, low profile Dwarf Runner build with Block, On The Ball. Not flashy but effective.


My context division is TVMM with 15 game-long season.

If you play in a very short private league (say 7 games or less) taking random skills (due to lack of games to earn more SPPs) could give you an edge over the next opponents.

Instead, with a longer Season, such as 15 games and in TVMM division I guess that picking the skills on positionals is better, most of times.
Don't forget that picked skills cost more SPPS but by picking them you get the extra "hidden" synergic TV-value.
It's harder to get synergic "hidden value" from random skills.
Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: Sep 19, 2021 - 19:08 Reply with quote Back to top

With limited play the random/picked choice is becoming more clear. I don’t think the full consequences of a 40 TV secondary skill had sunk in when I first theorybowled. Is a picked secondary worth the same as the old +AG? No way. Then you compare a random secondary to a picked one. Is it worth an additional 20 TV to avoid cycling? No way. So the choice is very clear, you randomly pick secondaries and cycle them.

As for primary skills, I think randomly acquiring the first one is a solid choice. I love human catchers so I will use them as the example. I just randomly rolled two first skills, Tackle and Frenzy. On first blush I was underwhelmed. I almost fired the Frenzy, as it is a horrible skill for a st 2 piece. But thinking it through, if I pick the second skill as Dauntless that player actually has good value. For 95 TV I have a MA8 frenzy with dauntless. The Tackle player can add Wrestle for a ball hawk. Those two catchers in my backfield can prevent any team from scoring on a breakaway.

Randomly picking G skills can lead to good builds at a discount. DP->SG; Block->SS; Shadowing->DT. The only one without a logical build path is kick, but then you can just randomly pick another G skill for the second and continue on. Kick for 10 TV is a no brainer. Fend may be the same boat, but I’m not sure if I would want Fend even for 10 TV...
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 19, 2021 - 19:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Mingoose wrote:
For 95 TV I have a MA8 frenzy with dauntless.

And you have turnovers assured and still a not reliable Catcher with 3+ Catch.

First skill is either Block or Wrestle (even Diving Catch could be ok for those 2-turn drives), be it random or chosen, but, if your purpose is making a turnover machine, then it's a nice build.

I guess you would love a Swiss Army Knife without the knife but with random tools inside, by the same logic.
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