Lyracian
Joined: Oct 29, 2015
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 Posted:
Nov 12, 2020 - 17:52 |
 
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Looks like Vampire and High Elves are crash and burn this time around. 50% chance of a Vampire eating a team mate (even another Vampire) when they try to Hypno gaze, pass or just move up the field is way bad!
Looks like we will need a third issue of the PDF since Blitz-Ra has A access for Primary and Secondary. At least starting with Block not a problem if they lose General! Throw-Ra can at least throw; not that anyone can actually catch the ball.
Chorfs now get Hakflem as a Star. Need a move 9 player for that OTT attempt... |
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Nuffle wills it.
Lyracian. |
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Java
Joined: Jan 27, 2018
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| Posted:
Nov 12, 2020 - 19:18 |
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Vamps are way better now. |
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Vlad Von Carstein's door-to-door evangelist |
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King_Ghidra
Joined: Sep 14, 2009
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| Posted:
Nov 12, 2020 - 19:33 |
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| Java wrote: | | Vamps are way better now. |
i'm all ears, please enlighten me |
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pokrjax
Joined: Dec 01, 2014
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| Posted:
Nov 12, 2020 - 19:39 |
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More likely to bite but, they don't leave the pitch if they don't and the bite comes first so afterwards they can move freely. You're less restricted by where you place your thralls and failed actions don't equal vampires running off the pitch. |
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sebco
Joined: Feb 14, 2005
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Nov 12, 2020 - 19:40 |
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He has been short. But, even if it's too soon to have a clear opinion on vampires potential in BB 2020, I've also already seen that :
-starting vampires now hypnotize on a 2+ instead of 3+
-Animal Savagery has some - but also + compared to Blood Lust (for example, it's first an armour roll and not directly an injury roll)
-Pro is way better now (3+ instead of 4+, and ability ro reroll only 1d of a dice pool) and will be taken by vampires, in my opinion, for their failed hypnotic gazes and their falied Animal Savagery rolls . |
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I like cheese but don't call me skaven ! |
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Java
Joined: Jan 27, 2018
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| Posted:
Nov 12, 2020 - 19:48 |
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| King_Ghidra wrote: | | Java wrote: | | Vamps are way better now. |
i'm all ears, please enlighten me |
2+ gaze (YUGE!)
pro is better
As long as there's a snack, action takes place as intended
Snack needs to be where you are at the start, rather than at the end, easier positioning
In an emergency, snack can be a vamp
Snacks are just prone 58% of the time, no longer autostun minimum
Lack of snack no longer disappears your vamp
Higher gains limit impact of game-to-game attrition
They're different and of course there are drawbacks to all this (can't multisnack on the same guy anymore, maybe just twice? If he gets up after the first bite...), but bear in mind, 6 vamps 2mil TV teams were not intended to exist within the confines of bb16 seasons, and are not contemplated in the new rules, so any analysis should apply to 1300 TV Vamps  |
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King_Ghidra
Joined: Sep 14, 2009
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Nov 12, 2020 - 20:30 |
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imho:
having to bite on 1-3 for any non blocking action is terrible for a primarily non-blocking team
having to bite a standing team-mate in your tz is extremely limiting and will lead to a lot of non-activations
i don't think vamps leaving the field was really an issue. it was easy to play around, and thrall attrition was the result. i'll certainly concede that making armour rolls rather than straight injury roll is good. but if you are biting 3 times more often i think the net result is worse
and using a 3+ pro to re-roll a 4+ is not better than using a 4+ pro to re-roll a 2+ |
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ceetee
Joined: Jun 28, 2009
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Nov 12, 2020 - 20:55 |
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Surely, to successfully hypno gaze an opponent, we should be comparing:
Current rules: 2+ Blood lust, 3+ Gaze = 56%
BB2020 rules: 4+ Animal savagery, 2+ Gaze = 42%
50% chance of non block/blitz action not even occurring, potentially losing tackle zones? Eek. |
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Java
Joined: Jan 27, 2018
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Nov 12, 2020 - 21:11 |
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That 4+ roll you mention does not exist in practice.
Snacking did not and does not prevent gazing. It's actually easier to snack at the start, in terms of places you can go to on the pitch, than at the end.
Fails on gazes just halved FOR FREE and you want to see that as a negative because there's a hypothetical increase in thrall attrition. Fair enough. |
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Lyracian
Joined: Oct 29, 2015
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Nov 12, 2020 - 21:13 |
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With a 50% chance to whack an adjacent team member or do nothing every time they do something that is not a block/blitz. Quick maths gives a 19.4% chance of injuring a Thrall, who has to be standing, vs the old 16.6% that could also bite stunned players.
I am sure someone can check if that calculation is correct. |
_________________
Nuffle wills it.
Lyracian. |
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Java
Joined: Jan 27, 2018
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Nov 12, 2020 - 22:03 |
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I'm going to copy and paste some maths that I typed up on discord.
AS Blitz and block activate on a 2+, moves do on a 4+
armour breaks are on a 8+ so 15/36
ko's are 9/36 and cas are 6/36, but that doesn't change for either AS or BL
(I'm not taking MB into account because it's an open issue and also if it actually works on snacks you won't take it, period)
AS injury rolls per half: (8/6+8/6+8/2)*15/36 = 2.777
or if you don't get any free blocks at all: (8/6+2*8/2)*15/36 = 3.888
BL injury rolls per half: 24/6 = 4
BONUS Maths request 1, damage comparison just for moving
6 moves with BL = 1 injury roll
6 moves with AS = 1.25 injury rolls
BONUS Maths request 2, number of knockdowns per 24 activations
assuming 8 blocks/8blitzes/8moves, you get 6.666 knockdowns, of which 2.777 armour breaks so 3.888 can be activated and stand up/move 3 afterwards
worst case scenario of 8 blitzes and 16 moves, 9.333 knockdowns of which 5.444 are just prones
old BL scenario, 24 activations produce 4 knockdowns which are at least stuns
apparently the big price to pay for 2+ gazes and vampires that don't disappear anymore is... LESS attrition on my thralls?
Oh well, vampires are done for. Dead. Like, really dead. Hyperdead. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Nov 13, 2020 - 07:39 |
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Pretty sure that vamp change is a place holder change until they get their own spike magazine. |
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Java
Joined: Jan 27, 2018
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Nov 13, 2020 - 08:12 |
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That may well be the case, but the previous incarnation of ToL did not shy away from including new skills not in the main rules.
Anyway, here's a thing that some coaches will appreciate and others will shake their heads at 
https://imgur.com/a/MsYNUBX |
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King_Ghidra
Joined: Sep 14, 2009
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Nov 13, 2020 - 10:31 |
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I think you expect way too many blocks in your analysis. Even splits of blocks/blitzes/other actions is not realistic.
If I have four vamps only one can blitz each turn, and the chances the others are all standing or based to allow a block a third of the time is not likely, nor what i want them to be doing. A quick glance at some of my vamp teams stats suggests many vamps who made 1/3 blocks or less per total number of turns on the pitch. I found several games where a vamp had 8+ turns and 0 blocks.
So per your analysis:
| Quote: |
worst case scenario of 8 blitzes and 16 moves, 9.333 knockdowns of which 5.444 are just prones
old BL scenario, 24 activations produce 4 knockdowns which are at least stuns
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so in the 1/3 blocks case, AS is much worse for knockdowns. And for injuries:
| Quote: |
AS injury rolls per half [...] if you don't get any free blocks at all:(8/6+2*8/2)*15/36 = 3.888
BL injury rolls per half: 24/6 = 4
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So even if we ignore all the other negatives of AS in limiting movement, causing knockdowns of your own team, failed activations of vamps and lost tackle zones, it's not even significantly better for Thrall health in any vamp team doing vamp things rather than playing like a basher. |
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Niessuh
Joined: Dec 11, 2009
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Nov 13, 2020 - 10:43 |
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It seemps that Vamps are going to do more blocks now, as their need to avoid rage forces them to increase their bashing
Anyways, thralls (and vampires) could easily get cheap AV stat ups now. I imagine vampires making crowds around them on every turn :p |
Last edited by Niessuh on %b %13, %2020 - %10:%Nov; edited 3 times in total |
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