35 coaches online • Server time: 15:49
Forum Chat
Log in
Recent Forum Topics goto Post Secret League Old Wo...goto Post Creating a custom to...goto Post ramchop takes on the...
SearchSearch 
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 12, 2020 - 20:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Was that hard for GW to clearly state the interaction of Strip Ball and Safe Pair of Hands in both skills' descriptions, considering it's going to be a common one?
Loki_on_NAF



Joined: Jun 07, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 12, 2020 - 20:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Lyracian wrote:
Loki_on_NAF wrote:
The 'as if they had been Knocked Down' is in SB's description - so its providing an exception to the rules in that skills case.


Amusingly I would use the same argument to say it does work. As if knocked down means you follow all the rules that work when you had been.

Guess we will have to wait for the FAQ in May to get an answer on this and Diving Catch.


I think your going to have to expand on that to persuade me... the above is an exception on the pushing bit of a block for Strip Ball. There is no Knocking Down going on with Strip Ball so how do you even get Safe Pair of Hands started?

The rules are talking about pushing and the ball scattering due to a skill (like a Knock Down) as someone said above do you think you get to roll armour against the pushed player because it’s like a Knock down?

_________________
Time flies like an arrow,
Fruit flies like a banana.
Grasshugger17



Joined: Jun 29, 2020

Post   Posted: Dec 12, 2020 - 21:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Loki_on_NAF wrote:
Lyracian wrote:
Loki_on_NAF wrote:
The 'as if they had been Knocked Down' is in SB's description - so its providing an exception to the rules in that skills case.


Amusingly I would use the same argument to say it does work. As if knocked down means you follow all the rules that work when you had been.

Guess we will have to wait for the FAQ in May to get an answer on this and Diving Catch.


I think your going to have to expand on that to persuade me... the above is an exception on the pushing bit of a block for Strip Ball. There is no Knocking Down going on with Strip Ball so how do you even get Safe Pair of Hands started?

The rules are talking about pushing and the ball scattering due to a skill (like a Knock Down) as someone said above do you think you get to roll armour against the pushed player because it’s like a Knock down?


You've got to look at the both rules in their entirety together and then it make sense.

Strip ball only works on a push back result and then the ball bounces in the same as way as when a player is knocked down.

Safe pair of hands only works on a knock down result and then the ball can be placed where the player wants.

Loki, if you look at the whole rule, the 'as if knocked down' bit is referring to the ball not the player.

Taken together it is actually clear, which is unusual for GW.
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Dec 12, 2020 - 22:22 Reply with quote Back to top

They ruled that Diving Tackle does not apply to the rerolled dodge, despite the wording not changing from the previous version, so all bets are off.

Maybe in May we'll get an answer.

_________________
Vlad Von Carstein's door-to-door evangelist
NickNutria



Joined: Jul 25, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 12, 2020 - 22:31 Reply with quote Back to top

I have to admit that I didn't notice that this rule only applied to the scattering of the ball, so probably you're right and Safe pair of hands doesn't work.
Severedunit



Joined: Oct 08, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2020 - 03:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Clearly this skill is borken.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2020 - 04:24 Reply with quote Back to top

My reading of relevant rules. Note that I'm paraphrasing to show why I think it works this way, but I believe the wording of the rules backs up this interpretation:
Scattering a ball: 'If a ball carrier is knocked down, the ball scatters'
Block action: 'If a block action results in a knock down, look at rules for scattering a ball'
Strip ball: 'on a push result, even if a ball carrier isn't knocked down, scatter the ball by the scattering rules'
Safe Pair of hands: 'if a ball carrier loses the ball, you get to choose instead of scattering'

Therefore, I think Safe Pair of Hands DOES work with Strip Ball.
tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2020 - 08:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Goodness sakes, everyone.

"If this player is knocked down or placed prone ...".

Really. Read that bit again if you're confused. The skill functions if a specific condition is met.

Strip Ball scatters the ball on a push, fine, Safe Pair of Hands looks at their skill. "If this player is knocked down or placed prone ..."? Nope, doesn't apply. The skill doesn't say "knocked down, placed prone, or loses the ball on a push due to strip ball". Not even close.

Yeah, the ball scattered like he was knocked down, but Safe Pair of Hands doesn't apply because the ball scatters, it applies "If this player is knocked down or placed prone ...".

_________________
ImageImage
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2020 - 08:06 Reply with quote Back to top

I cannot believe we got two pages of people using exactly the same words to argue both sides of the debate!

Guess we will just have to wait and see which way the FUMBBL update gets programmed and what the May FAQ says. Seems pointless to carry the discussion on any further.

_________________
Nuffle wills it.

Lyracian.
Grasshugger17



Joined: Jun 29, 2020

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2020 - 08:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
My reading of relevant rules. Note that I'm paraphrasing to show why I think it works this way, but I believe the wording of the rules backs up this interpretation:
Scattering a ball: 'If a ball carrier is knocked down, the ball scatters'
Block action: 'If a block action results in a knock down, look at rules for scattering a ball'
Strip ball: 'on a push result, even if a ball carrier isn't knocked down, scatter the ball by the scattering rules'
Safe Pair of hands: 'if a ball carrier loses the ball, you get to choose instead of scattering'

Therefore, I think Safe Pair of Hands DOES work with Strip Ball.


I'll be blunt here. Are you even looking at the rule for Safe Pair of Hands? You've missed out the most pertinent part - It only works on a knockdown.

Strip ball only works on a push.

Safe Pair of Hands only works on a knock down.

Quite frankly, I find it hard to believe that anyone can misinterpret this. Maybe it's down to some sort of irrational hatred of GW? I stand by my previous statement that both rules are clear.
sebco



Joined: Feb 14, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2020 - 09:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
Safe Pair of hands: 'if a ball carrier loses the ball, you get to choose instead of scattering'


This is not what is written in the new rulebook.

Safe pair of Hands doesn't work every time a ball carrier loses the ball. It only works in two cases, as stated in the skill description : if the ball carrier is Knocked Down or Placed Prone.

The Official Rules wrote:
If this player is Knocked Down or Placed Prone (but not if they fall over) whilst in possession of the ball, the ball does not bounce. Instead, you may place the ball in an unoccupied square adjacent to the one this player occupies when they become Prone


If many of you send this question to GW, I suppose we'll have an answer in next FAQ and that will close this topic (which is already too long for Lyracian Very Happy ).

But, waiting for that, as a tabletop tourney ref, I won't accept players using Safe Pair of Hands after having been Pushed by a Strip Ball guy.

For me :
-first condition of using this skill doesn't apply (player is not Knocked Down or Place Prone)
-condition to place the ball doesn't apply anymore (you have to chose a square adjacent to the one this player occupies when they become Prone)

That said, I admit they could have filled better their parentheses. For example "but not if they fall over or are pushed by a Strip Ball opponent player" or even "but not if they fall over or lose the ball in any other way than being Knocked Down or Place Prone"

_________________
I like cheese but don't call me skaven !
Cyrus-Havoc



Joined: Sep 15, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2020 - 11:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Sure hands specifically mentions Strip ball does not work against it. Safe pair of hands does not.
So Safe pair of hands only works against Strip ball if the player is knocked down.

_________________
Not Undead but perhaps the oldest living coach!
Mr_Quarantine



Joined: Mar 12, 2020

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2020 - 12:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Cyrus-Havoc wrote:
Sure hands specifically mentions Strip ball does not work against it. Safe pair of hands does not.
So Safe pair of hands only works against Strip ball if the player is knocked down.


Sure hands specifically mentions strip ball because everything else in the skill description is about the pickup so you have 1)rr, 2)negate strip ball.
On the other hand Safe pair of hands is already talking about scattering.


That said I think the intended effect would be to let you use SPoH even on a strip ball pushback, but RAW it doesn't work.
DrDeath



Joined: Mar 27, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2020 - 13:33 Reply with quote Back to top

The distinction between push back and knocked down does seem to clear that up, I think! However I sincerely hope that SPoH does not work on a pushback with Strip Ball or the rules will be even more broken. It will be hard enough for something like an elf leaping into a tight cage on a 5+, or 4+ with Leap - and likely similar odds with something like a Break Tackle strong player due to nerf to those mechanics too - then facing a likely uphill -2d blitz, and THEN the ballcarrier gets to choose to dump the ball in at least 2 Tackle Zones even if the blitz is successful?!

That would be awful, the rules changes for breaking cages are bad enough as it is. A defensive coach not only needs a realistic chance of breaking a cage, they ALSO need a sporting chance of being able to pick up the ball to recover too, possibly passing it on from there too (and passing rules also badly nerfed). To be honest the changes were so bad already, even the ballcarrier being able to choose where the ball goes on a knock-over sack are bad enough with SPoH. Looks like another nail in the coffin to me - we are about to see a game of extremely boring, almost unstopabble drives. Only way to stop them will be a big melee for bash teams. Or for agile teams (or Str4+ Break tackle blitzes) I doubt it will even be worth attempting that dynamic sack - they will just be forced to dance around trying to maintain a passive screen.

Only thing the other way is the ability for agile teams to use more than one reroll in a turn, or slightly improved Pro skill. But Pro on a 3+ still doesn't help much and is another skill you have to take on a small team. And rerolls are so expensive. So that dynamic sack will be very expensive, especially for the small teams now up to around 1350 tv. I just can't believe they arrived at these mechanics, never mind play-testing how do you even propose those odds in the first place looking at the maths? I fear it will greatly impoverish the game, they have made such large and unbalanced changes might as well just call it 'Dwarf Bowl'. Lots of grinds, even less passing, not even worth trying dynamic defence? Sad
Grasshugger17



Joined: Jun 29, 2020

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2020 - 14:56 Reply with quote Back to top

DrDeath wrote:
The distinction between push back and knocked down does seem to clear that up, I think! However I sincerely hope that SPoH does not work on a pushback with Strip Ball or the rules will be even more broken. It will be hard enough for something like an elf leaping into a tight cage on a 5+, or 4+ with Leap - and likely similar odds with something like a Break Tackle strong player due to nerf to those mechanics too - then facing a likely uphill -2d blitz, and THEN the ballcarrier gets to choose to dump the ball in at least 2 Tackle Zones even if the blitz is successful?!

That would be awful, the rules changes for breaking cages are bad enough as it is. A defensive coach not only needs a realistic chance of breaking a cage, they ALSO need a sporting chance of being able to pick up the ball to recover too, possibly passing it on from there too (and passing rules also badly nerfed). To be honest the changes were so bad already, even the ballcarrier being able to choose where the ball goes on a knock-over sack are bad enough with SPoH. Looks like another nail in the coffin to me - we are about to see a game of extremely boring, almost unstopabble drives. Only way to stop them will be a big melee for bash teams. Or for agile teams (or Str4+ Break tackle blitzes) I doubt it will even be worth attempting that dynamic sack - they will just be forced to dance around trying to maintain a passive screen.

Only thing the other way is the ability for agile teams to use more than one reroll in a turn, or slightly improved Pro skill. But Pro on a 3+ still doesn't help much and is another skill you have to take on a small team. And rerolls are so expensive. So that dynamic sack will be very expensive, especially for the small teams now up to around 1350 tv. I just can't believe they arrived at these mechanics, never mind play-testing how do you even propose those odds in the first place looking at the maths? I fear it will greatly impoverish the game, they have made such large and unbalanced changes might as well just call it 'Dwarf Bowl'. Lots of grinds, even less passing, not even worth trying dynamic defence? Sad


Happy Christmas!!!!
Display posts from previous:     
 Jump to:   
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic