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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2020 - 16:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Grasshugger17 wrote:
Nelphine wrote:
My reading of relevant rules. Note that I'm paraphrasing to show why I think it works this way, but I believe the wording of the rules backs up this interpretation:
Scattering a ball: 'If a ball carrier is knocked down, the ball scatters'
Block action: 'If a block action results in a knock down, look at rules for scattering a ball'
Strip ball: 'on a push result, even if a ball carrier isn't knocked down, scatter the ball by the scattering rules'
Safe Pair of hands: 'if a ball carrier loses the ball, you get to choose instead of scattering'

Therefore, I think Safe Pair of Hands DOES work with Strip Ball.


I'll be blunt here. Are you even looking at the rule for Safe Pair of Hands? You've missed out the most pertinent part - It only works on a knockdown.

Strip ball only works on a push.

Safe Pair of Hands only works on a knock down.

Quite frankly, I find it hard to believe that anyone can misinterpret this. Maybe it's down to some sort of irrational hatred of GW? I stand by my previous statement that both rules are clear.


oh i'm reading them.

Knocking a player down isn't what results in a scatter. (Per the 'Block action' Rules)

Instead 'if a player in possession of the ball is placed prone the ball will bounce from the square the player is placed prone in'. (Per the 'Deviate, Scatter or Bounce' Rules)

This has nothing to do with block results at all. If you could place your opponent prone when you roll a skull on block results, you'd still follow those rules, regardless of the block results. So the fact that strip ball is on particular block results simply doesn't matter.

However, some block results knock down a player. This happens to also place the player prone, and that happens to bounce the ball. (Nothing directly related to being knocked down)

Then strip ball makes the ball 'bounce from the square the player is pushed into, as if they were knocked down'.

But since knocking someone down doesn't MAKE the ball bounce, then we know this is actually a reference to the general rules. (so if you want to read it that way, then strip ball literally doesn't work and this whole discussion doesn't matter.)

Then safe pair of hands 'if the player is knocked down or place prone whilst in possession of the ball'

The ball is bouncing 'as if they were knocked down'. (Recall that never makes a ball bounce anyway, only being placed prone does; and further, the block result has literally no impact on whether a ball bounces.) Therefore, safe pair of hands applies because the ball is only bouncing because they were 'knocked down' which is what safe pair of hands protects you from.
Pedda



Joined: Mar 27, 2013

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2020 - 16:46 Reply with quote Back to top

I think that the answer is in the first part of the sentence (before the "as if they had been Knocked Down.")

"The ball will bounce from the square the player is pushed back into,..."
A bounce is defined on page 25 and that is what happens after the push. The "as if they had been Knocked Down." doesn't really add anything (but confusion).


Last edited by Pedda on Dec 13, 2020 - 19:53; edited 1 time in total
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2020 - 18:25 Reply with quote Back to top

I think that if "Safe Pair of Hands" works against a "Strip Ball" then you also should make an armour roll as you always make an armour roll when the player is "Knocked Down"... Wink

"Safe Pair of Hands" require the player to be knocked down to work. If that does not happen then the skill don't activate.
Randobot



Joined: Mar 04, 2013

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2020 - 18:47 Reply with quote Back to top

SPOH: "the ball does not bounce. Instead you may place the ball"

Why is there any discussion of a bouncing ball or scattering? The ball is not bouncing.

Strip: "the ball will bounce"

Sure hands: "strip ball cannot be used against a player with this skill"
uzkulak



Joined: Mar 30, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2020 - 18:56 Reply with quote Back to top

no player will have enough levels to take this skill anyway, so don't worry about it...
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2020 - 19:24 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB wrote:
I think that if "Safe Pair of Hands" works against a "Strip Ball" then you also should make an armour roll as you always make an armour roll when the player is "Knocked Down"... Wink

"Safe Pair of Hands" require the player to be knocked down to work. If that does not happen then the skill don't activate.


No it requires the player to be knocked down and holding the ball and therefore the ball bounces. But we've already established that being knocked down doesn't cause the ball to bounce anyway.

Strip ball causes the ball to bounce as if the player was knocked down; this therefore triggers Safe Pair of Hands.
Grasshugger17



Joined: Jun 29, 2020

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2020 - 21:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
CAB wrote:
I think that if "Safe Pair of Hands" works against a "Strip Ball" then you also should make an armour roll as you always make an armour roll when the player is "Knocked Down"... Wink

"Safe Pair of Hands" require the player to be knocked down to work. If that does not happen then the skill don't activate.


No it requires the player to be knocked down and holding the ball and therefore the ball bounces. But we've already established that being knocked down doesn't cause the ball to bounce anyway.

Strip ball causes the ball to bounce as if the player was knocked down; this therefore triggers Safe Pair of Hands.


If I put on a Yoda outfit, am I a Jedi? No.
If the ball bounces as if I'm knocked down, am I knocked down. No.

Does Safe Pair of Hands only work on a knock down. Yes.

Does Strip ball work on a knock down. No.

Therefore, if strip ball works on a push, will Safe Pair of Hands work on Strip Ball. No.

Can't be any more clearer than that. If you still disagree, then let's agree to disagree. Later mater!
Rigolgm



Joined: Sep 14, 2018

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2020 - 21:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Strip Ball makes the ball bounce "AS IF" they had been knocked down.

But Safe Pair of Hands only works if the player "IS" knocked down or made prone.

It seems fairly clear to me.

You just have to answer the question "was the player knocked down or made prone?", and the answer is "er ... no .... BUT HE DID DROP A BALL AS IF HE WAS!". It's a no.

Happy to be corrected by an FAQ. But otherwise I think it's fairly clear.

I mean, the Throw Team Mate Rules say you can throw a team mate "as if they were the ball" but it doesn't mean they ARE a ball for those purposes.
Zlefin



Joined: Apr 14, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2020 - 22:00 Reply with quote Back to top

That there's any debate or question at all is an indicator that they need better editors, particularly ones good at designing rules, lawyering, and being pedantic; so things like this get properly caught in the design phase rather than people having to argue after release.

re: caging; will it be worth having a runner with sure hands and safe pair of hands on say, dwarven runners, or other teams?
Rigolgm



Joined: Sep 14, 2018

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2020 - 23:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Agree. I'm baffled by the wording of the Leap skill. I don't understand the bits about -1 etc.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2020 - 00:00 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm fine to agree to disagree then.
tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2020 - 02:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
Then safe pair of hands 'if the player is knocked down or place prone whilst in possession of the ball'

That's the requirement to use the skill. That's how skills are written, you can use them when a certain thing is happening (and otherwise the default rules apply).

When you can use skills is a very important thing. It's the "if" and "when" part of each skill description. In this case, "if the player is knocked down or placed prone ..." is the part of the game you can use your Safe Pair of Hands skill.

You can't use Safe Pair of Hands in other similar parts of the game.

Doing otherwise would be a very silly way to read these rules. Like, you'd use Dodge to turn a Pow into a Push, because that's what happens when they roll a Stumble, it turns a Pow into a Push, so you can just do that any time there's a Pow, like when they roll a Pow. Right? No?

No! You can use Dodge when they roll a Stumble. You can use Safe Pair of Hands "if you are Knocked Down or Placed Prone ...". Similar events in the game are not so modified because you use the skills if and when you can use them and not otherwise.

--

And this sort of clarity will no doubt help read other rules. Useful argument, thanks Nelphine.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2020 - 02:59 Reply with quote Back to top

right but dodge doesn't say 'turn any pows into pushes'. It says 'when they roll a stumble, then it is a push'.

strip ball says 'as if knocked down'. Since knocked down does NOT bounce the ball, we know this is a general rule - if it wasn't that, then they could have said 'as if placed prone'. But they didn't, they said 'as if knocked down'. Therefore, we are talking about a general 'for all intents related to the ball bouncing, this is a knock down' which therefore calls on 'placed prone' which causes the ball to bounce.

Safe pair of hands is 'an intent related to the ball bouncing'. Therefore, since Strip Ball causes the ball to bounce because of a knockdown (even though it doesn't cause other effects of a knocked down, including being placed prone), Safe Pair of Hands applies.


Last edited by Nelphine on Dec 14, 2020 - 03:04; edited 1 time in total
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2020 - 03:03 Reply with quote Back to top

If safe pair of hands shouldn't apply, then strip ball simply should have said 'on a push result, if the target has the ball, then the ball bounces from the square the target is pushed into' and not referenced knock down at all (because bouncing the ball is its own keyword; there's no other reason to reference knock down, unless specifically to call on other things, like safe pair of hands, that reference it)
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2020 - 03:07 Reply with quote Back to top

on the other hand, safe pair of hands is worded that way specifically so that the player with that skill must already be holding the ball in order to use the skill. (for instance, if it bounces into their square, and they don't catch it, they don't get to use safe pair of hands as it bounces out)

but for strip ball, the safe pair of hands player IS holding it. So the wording still applies (unless they change strip ball as i suggested - because then strip ball would make the ball bounce as if the former-ball-carrier had not been holding it in the first place)
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