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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 28, 2020 - 16:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Interesting, that's the first I've heard someone really go against the fouling changes. The fact that the bashiest teams (dwarves, khemri and orcs) don't have access to a GA player I think makes the fouling changes a good thing, and should bring fouling to a more consistent place across a lot more races. Minor compared to your other points (which I agree with) but still, any good thing is worthwhile in my opinion.
DrDeath



Joined: Mar 27, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 28, 2020 - 17:03 Reply with quote Back to top

The main thing I don't like about the new fouling is it's too random and dicey - a player can foul and then run away behind a screen. But I think it will also favour dwarfs when they get a fouler (and they will, as they hardly need any skills from the get-go anyway. Or can just use the Deathroller), because they will steamroller sides and then stamp on the isolated ones on the floor in the middle of their scrum. In return, the opposition will be faced with a wall of Av9 dwarfs, probably with a load of guard too - when you get one of them down, how do you find a worthwhile foul? with great difficulty against any decent dwarf coach. So I see the new fouling as an extra weapon for dwarfs, and they didn't need that - are already very broken at low TV. Even the deathroller could be good now - it has Dirty Player +2!
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 28, 2020 - 18:42 Reply with quote Back to top

oh i agree that it was very strange that dwarves didn't get nerfed (GIVEN that almost all other teams got nerfed, not because dwarves necessarily needed it in isolation)

however, fouling didn't improve so much that i would expect dwarves to want to get a dirty player blocker (that's still 90k); but it might encourage more dwarf coaches to take a deathroller (which historically has massively weakened a dwarf team)

so if the deathroller is now worth it (due to fouling) then maybe that will make it break even; which would be an improvement (via variety) for the dwarf team, and that IS a good thing
Crook666



Joined: Oct 16, 2012

Post   Posted: Dec 28, 2020 - 18:48 Reply with quote Back to top

I just (finally) went on a post on Reddit and learned (at least) the change in old and new skills. They seem to impact bad bashing, passing and leaping, some new skills seem almost useless (iron hard skin negates claw now that claw won't stack with MB anymore) and some of the old ones have been nerfed so much that they are not useful anymore (example: break tackle).

So, first of all, tanks again for the answer and the discussion.



Agreed that this will impact some teams more than others (Chaos? Nurgle?)

Agreed (and hoping) that this will drive more people into SL where the roster diversity can diminish the impact of the changes.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 28, 2020 - 19:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Crook666 wrote:

Agreed (and hoping) that this will drive more people into SL where the roster diversity can diminish the impact of the changes.


[SL] will be offering more cash & no cap. Teams could be cutting to 1600-1700.

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Wolbum



Joined: Jul 14, 2010

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2020 - 00:26 Reply with quote Back to top

DrDeath wrote:
The main thing I don't like about the new fouling is it's too random and dicey - a player can foul and then run away behind a screen. But I think it will also favour dwarfs when they get a fouler (and they will, as they hardly need any skills from the get-go anyway. Or can just use the Deathroller), because they will steamroller sides and then stamp on the isolated ones on the floor in the middle of their scrum. In return, the opposition will be faced with a wall of Av9 dwarfs, probably with a load of guard too - when you get one of them down, how do you find a worthwhile foul? with great difficulty against any decent dwarf coach. So I see the new fouling as an extra weapon for dwarfs, and they didn't need that - are already very broken at low TV. Even the deathroller could be good now - it has Dirty Player +2!


Just to clarify, fouling hasn't changed at all from the previous edition. The foul then run behind your own team mate is exclusively sneaky git, which I think no bash team is going to save up for a secondary skill just for it.
ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2020 - 00:58 Reply with quote Back to top

DrDeath wrote:
bghandras wrote:
I think that the new environment will be more diverse, as far as races are concerned. Simply because significant number of teams operate at high efficiency at mid TW level (1300-1500)


I hope you're right bghandras but I fear the opposite will happen. I think we will see an awful lot of dwarf, and other bash teams with the rules changes.


Maybe I am alone, but once I became a Black Box player over Ranked, I simply have started creating a team of every race and put them all into the game scheduler and play whatever comes out.

I am not inclined to define what is fun as its very subjective, but I think playing Dwarves over and over for 15 games and redrafting and rinse and repeat is quite stale. I think coaches will be inclined to mix it up and use many races given the new rules and new meta. I think we will see alot of Black Orcs and Nobles as well simply for the "newness" of them.
Wolbum



Joined: Jul 14, 2010

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2020 - 01:25 Reply with quote Back to top

I think with the very nature of FUMBBL, many of the regulars or "vets" have played so much BB, its only natural we'll see variation. There may be a gigantic influx of Black Orcs, Dwarfs and Nobles for a time but that will fluctuate quite heavily, as with all coaches who gravitate towards the online platform.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2020 - 01:39 Reply with quote Back to top

sure but if a particular team comes out exceptionally strong (like chaos in crp), then coaches tend to gravitate towards that team, and regardless of what you play, your opponents will be rather similar. This is the concern with this rule change - that teams like dwarves may end up being declared 'good' by a certain subsection of coaches - which in turn will cause some large fraction to gravitate towards those teams, thus reducing who your opponents are.

While I certainly agree some coaches will play a variety, the majority of coaches still play 'tier 1' (whatever that might mean), which will end up being who you play against.
ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2020 - 02:41 Reply with quote Back to top

But doesnt that happen now with coaches looking to build teams for Fumbbl Cup etc and focusing on Chaos/Nurgle and to a lesser extent Woodies and Chorfs?

Now it will be Dwarves, maybe Orcs and who knows how the Black Orcs pan out with the fouling / grab combo.

There will be, no matter what ruleset, a "winningest team/skill combo" and there will always be those who pursue that avenue.

I think in the main, most coaches play what they like to a style they like and there will be variety...
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2020 - 02:52 Reply with quote Back to top

no, in crp we had that. now it's less (not enough less, but still much less). And as you mentioned, currently its focused on major tournaments - but with crp, it wasn't, it was found at all tv levels.

However, I expect with bb2020, we'll see a resurgence again, where even if its different teams than in crp, we will see that level of only certain teams being played (which in some ways is what drove the start of the box trophy - to get more teams being played, because even after bb2016, we still had too many of certain teams being played), and not just for tournaments, but all over the place (like it was in crp).

if we go back to crp era levels of people only playing certain teams.. i think that will overall be a step back for the game.
smallman



Joined: Sep 24, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2020 - 04:55 Reply with quote Back to top

For me the best part of Fumbbl is continuously developing teams. Seasons is going to kill this best feature, and I fear this will have a big impact on the player base. And with off-peak box still left unfixed, players will get lost to other interests at a rate way faster than new people come on board.
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2020 - 10:17 Reply with quote Back to top

ClayInfinity wrote:
Maybe I am alone, but once I became a Black Box player over Ranked, I simply have started creating a team of every race and put them all into the game scheduler and play whatever comes out.

That is great. Not sure I could keep up with that many different teams. I usually activate 4 or 5. I expect going forward that will be all my teams.

Nelphine wrote:
While I certainly agree some coaches will play a variety, the majority of coaches still play 'tier 1' (whatever that might mean), which will end up being who you play against.

This is my thought. I am expecting 80-90% of the meta to be the same six teams. Can you really call it diverse if the other 20 teams in the game make up only 10% or 15% of the matches?

smallman wrote:
For me the best part of Fumbbl is continuously developing teams. Seasons is going to kill this best feature, and I fear this will have a big impact on the player base. And with off-peak box still left unfixed, players will get lost to other interests at a rate way faster than new people come on board.

There will be no continuously developing for teams going forward. Each season will be two steps forward three steps back. As for off-peak scheduler I am only writing this because there was not enough players for a game at 10:00 and will try once more at 10:15 and then move on to other stuff as it will be too late to start a game for me.

DrDeath wrote:

I fear we will see less team build variation too. With the 1350 tv season end and rebuys, most teams will prioritise 1) a killer blitzer, 2) a ball handler, and 3) a fouler (with the overly pimped new fouling rules).

Not sure I see people prioritizing a Fouler. For some races sure but not across the board.

I was thinking what I would do on Dark Elves. My thought was to use that 350k to buy the second Witch Elf with skills and then re-hire a pair of Dodge Blitzers with as many unspent SPP as possible. Each season you will then plan to re-hire the other pair of Blitzers who have got dodge and hoarded SPP. Spend them all after first game of the next season.
gansus



Joined: Sep 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2020 - 11:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
who will now never really be able to develop into a good team - so we will see very few of those. Inexplicably, they have nerfed a lot of teams but not dwarfs, despite them already being pretty broken at low tv and suiting the new ruleset and league structure even better (they start with so many key skills and only need a bit of guard and mighty blow to be very good)


I have always thought dwarves are pretty broken, as you also think, but I have felt pretty alone in this romm Rolling Eyes

Besides the aspects you raised there is also a collateral one: if you lose one lineman, you can replace it with a block, thick skull and tackle... Whats more, I have not been able to find it for more than 15 years now, but there is an interview with Jervis Johnson that took place more than 20 years ago where he shows dwarves were the only team they had to break their own rules to give a value to players with, hehe Laughing Linemen were far too expensive to make a team with those skill but they wanted the skills in. Hope I could find it again Crying or Very sad
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2020 - 12:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Removing Tackle from Blockers and pricing them 60k would do the trick.
Then, if Dwarfs struggle vs fast agile teams, Runners could get Tackle instead, so they could perform the safety duty.
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