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Poll
Do you agree with most of the points indicated in this thread?
yes
5%
 5%  [ 9 ]
No
66%
 66%  [ 104 ]
I don't care: i will play BB whatever be the rules
24%
 24%  [ 38 ]
I will abandon BB2020 in any case
3%
 3%  [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 157


argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 10, 2021 - 11:12 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:

They should elect Argos_72 onto the rules committee. It is only 82-4 (at the time of writing).
Plenty of time to catch up.


Oh no I do not have that claim Smile

reason of this poll is that during some games that I have played with players much more experienced than me (which currently are 90% Laughing ) i had the feeling they like to have some rules reform and complained on the current randomicity. Probably because i was playing so bad that then I had the chance to draw or even win because some crazy things happen (anc crazy things in this game happen not so rarely) and I can understand that this is make people angry.

So I had the idea to launch this poll to understand if this feeling was shared by majority or not.

But seems to me now evident that majority is preferring much more the fun factor (not the fan... really "fun" Smile ) than a game maybe more balanced but in the majority's opinion more "boring"

thanks in any case for your feedback, i did not hope to have so interesting debate!
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 10, 2021 - 12:32 Reply with quote Back to top

MrCushtie wrote:

Quote:
I don’t remember exactly when the first percentile dice arrived in the UK, although I recall they were sold by Skytrex and were quite expensive. These were actually 20-sided dice numbered 0-9 twice – one red and one black making a pair. There were a few games that featured these dice. I remember in particular a set of WW2 naval rules that used a series of complicated charts and graphs in conjunction with a percentage mechanic to determine the effect of gunfire. These dice suggested rules mechanisms different from those associated with usual six-sided dice. Percentage dice – D100s if you like – imply a mathematical profundity and precision that I believe we found appealing at the time. They give a feel of a serious and proper game – something more realistic than could be achieved with a D6. I still maintain that D100s give that feel to a game, though I would also suggest that it is a ‘feel’ only and in fact such mechanics are neither more realistic nor more accurate in terms of simulation. D100s can be remarkably unhelpful because of the even spread of probability, making fluky scores rather more common that you might wish. I would go on to use a D100 system for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, but we had to ameliorate the fluke element with ‘fate points’ to protect players from erratic dice swings.


... so I guess he'd argue that D8 is going to make things worse, although not as bad as D100 would.

BB is not a WWII naval battle game nor WHF RPG game.
As I wrote some posts ago, D100 would require too many modifiers to work properly and would make BB too complex to be played as TT in 2 hours.
Using the D100 example to jump to the guess that D8 would not be ok, when a D8 has just 2 more sides than a D6, unlike a D100, looks to me like a stretch.
Of course a D100, a D20, a D12 and probably a D10 would not be ok for BB, it's a not too complex TT game, not a RPG or a wargame, but a D8 could be the right compromise to decrease the chance of automatic success and failure. Also, is Rick Priestley involved in BB2020 rule design? As far as I know, he's not.

As an aside, I think that there should be a certain correlation between players' progression and the kind of dice used. With progression you need more than 6 sides.
With low or no progression, D6 doesn't show its flaws, but with some progression (when skills and stats are stacked on players) many modifiers make some of the D6 rolls too easy.
I played Necromunda some years ago and I noticed that, while the D6 system worked quite well with starting gangs, it didn't scale well when the gangers got characteristic increases (+BS) and weapon upgrades (red dot laser sight, bionic eye etc.), they could hit people in cover with 2+ most of times, thus spoiling the tactical aspect of the game (taking cover, using the terrain elements etc.).
So, to put it in another way, the D6 doesn't scale well when modifiers and stat boosts are involved.
BB2020 reduces the team growth so, the scaling issue will be less evident, but still a D8 in my opinion could improve the game without betraying its "anything can happen" and comedy spirit.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 10, 2021 - 17:14 Reply with quote Back to top

I mean, d8 passing with the BB2020 system otherwise left as-is, that would be kinda cool, okay... can we start with a little tweak like that here or there? 8-sided block dice is silliness: the only outcome would be making the game more complicated.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 10, 2021 - 18:22 Reply with quote Back to top

I even devised a D8 block dice, with 2 new results to add an extra layer of tactical depth, it's not as complicated as one could think:

1: Skull
2: Both Down
3: Both Prone (both players are Placed Prone, who has Wrestle can choose not to be Placed Prone, no AV roll in any case, no turnover unless attacker dropped the ball)
4: Both Stand/Attacker Pushed (if attacker blitzed no effect, both players stand; if attacker blocked he's pushed back)
5: Push
6: Push
7: Push/Pow
8: Pow
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 10, 2021 - 19:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Meh. I like it better as is. But totally, passes should use the d8. Use the PA skill as-is, but at -1 per range category (including QP) and only a modified 0 or less yields a Wildly Inaccurate result.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 10, 2021 - 19:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes, I think too that D8-based Passing mechanic would be better.
2 bad results on 8 (Fumble and Wildly Inaccurate) is better than 2 on 6.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 11, 2021 - 04:23 Reply with quote Back to top

OH NOES! I CALLED YOU the equivalent of STUBBORN!!!
I guess the fact that you continue to argue for something that you have admitted you were WRONG about for 8 pages is not proof enough that you are STUBBORN or as I more aptly dubbed earlier OBTUSE.
Lock me up! Send me to Interwebs Jail for being Accurate!

I'm sorry Argos... but this is an ALL YOU problem. I have gone out of my way to EXPLAIN THINGS TO YOU. And all you have done is continue to push something YOU DO NOT EVEN BELIEVE.
Excuse Me for my Accuracy in explaining to you the 2 most crucial things that you did not understand before this thread that SHOULD guide you judgement in what your opinions are in this thread .
And Excuse Me for you inability to understand it still.

But I have in no way slandered you. I have educated you. But your FAILING GRADE in Blood Bowl Comprehension remains a FAIL. And your response to a thorough education is what remains unacceptable. It is you who violates all rules of an open discussion and incites MORE.




argos_72 wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:
argos_72 wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:
YOU PROVE OUR POINT.
You are SO OBTUSE that you don't even know that you ALREADY KNOW you are WRONG.


you can calm down maybe...? Not sure why we have to enter in this mood



No. We MUST enter this "mood" because you insist on something that you KNOW is not TRUE, You have just admitted to it and it has been pointed out to you because you insist on the FALSE NARRATIVE.

And here you are again to further insist on what you have just admitted is FAKSE,

It is not an a insult to state things the way they are, You are being obtuse and it is you who is violating site policy to continue so. And the common term for behaving that way is known as Trolling.

I have just stated things the way that they are.

AND I DID NOT call you those things. I said your OPINION is being Trolled (by you).
And I never called you an idiot. I said you are ignorant of Football and of the whole point of Blood Bowl's randomness. You clearly do not watch American Football so again I am only stating a FACT. You ARE ignorant of it. Just as I am ignorant of how to speak Chinese. Being ignorant of something does not make one an idiot.

You are once again FALSE and Trolling as evidenced by you being false and trolling.


sorry Catalyst32 but you called me OBTUSE with CAPS LOCK.
in a public forum writing words in CAPITAL letters and telling a person that he is OBTUSE is equivalent to shouting and insulting.
This way of expressing yourself is not tolerable
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 11, 2021 - 04:41 Reply with quote Back to top

YES. What those other coaches were doing is WHINGING.
We've all done it because we have all had that game were the dice TOTALLY SCREWED US nd made it IMPOSSIBLE TO WIN or even be competitive while our opponent did DUMB STUFF that WORKED.

And back when you were THE WORST Player that you will ever be THE DICE you now HATE SO MUCH gave you a chance to WIN and to ENJOY this game.

AND THAT is why you ENJOYED this game and you stuck with this game.
And it why ALL OF US who were also once NEW to this game and THE WORST Player we will ever be were given a few chance to WIN or COMPETE against BETTER COACHES.

THAT IS THE POINT!!!
And that is WHY YOUR WHOLE IDEA that the CRAZY RESULTS are something that are WRONG with the game is WRONG HEADED THINKING.
The reason CHESS is better than Blood Bowl is regular people NEVER get to DEFEAT Kasparov and Bobby Fischer.

The reason BLOOD BOWL is better than Chess is that there are enough RANDOM ELEMENTS for regular people to DEFEAT Kasparov and Bobby Fischer thanks to too many 1's and Skulls and a Blitz Kickoff Result and a Snow Storm VS a few random POWS and 6's.

The CRAZY as you call it because you are a BAD COACH and don't understand that game IS THE REASON that Blood Bowl is AWESOME.
And rather than DEAL WITH IT and LEARN TO ADJUST TO IT you want to CHANGE IT into something that keep NEWBS from beating you.
You want to STEAL the experience from NEWBS that made you ENJOY this game in the 1st place. That is SELFISH and ultimately WRONG and is EXACTLY the kind of movement that would KILLLL THIS GAME.







argos_72 wrote:
koadah wrote:

They should elect Argos_72 onto the rules committee. It is only 82-4 (at the time of writing).
Plenty of time to catch up.


Oh no I do not have that claim Smile

reason of this poll is that during some games that I have played with players much more experienced than me (which currently are 90% Laughing ) i had the feeling they like to have some rules reform and complained on the current randomicity. Probably because i was playing so bad that then I had the chance to draw or even win because some crazy things happen (anc crazy things in this game happen not so rarely) and I can understand that this is make people angry.

So I had the idea to launch this poll to understand if this feeling was shared by majority or not.

But seems to me now evident that majority is preferring much more the fun factor (not the fan... really "fun" Smile ) than a game maybe more balanced but in the majority's opinion more "boring"

thanks in any case for your feedback, i did not hope to have so interesting debate!
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 11, 2021 - 04:50 Reply with quote Back to top

It nerfs Blocking and some teams live and die by Blocking and their ability to advance when they Block (even the 1 square). And you suggest 1 step backwards on 4 and an additional Both Down (with Injury possibility).

No. Just No. And WHY?!?!?
It accomplished NOTHING. It is change for NO REASON.

But for Passing. Maybe. Passing in this game has NEVER been right. Maybe D8's changes that. Maybe it still sucks.
All I know is Humans should be able to throw better. At least when using Throwers who Pass the ball to Catchers.
A haven't had a chance to play using the new Passing Rules. But that is at least a step in the right direction.




MattDakka wrote:
I even devised a D8 block dice, with 2 new results to add an extra layer of tactical depth, it's not as complicated as one could think:

1: Skull
2: Both Down
3: Both Prone (both players are Placed Prone, who has Wrestle can choose not to be Placed Prone, no AV roll in any case, no turnover unless attacker dropped the ball)
4: Both Stand/Attacker Pushed (if attacker blitzed no effect, both players stand; if attacker blocked he's pushed back)
5: Push
6: Push
7: Push/Pow
8: Pow
Foad



Joined: Sep 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 11, 2021 - 07:03 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
I even devised a D8 block dice


I've been using the following for over a decade on FUMBBL:
1: Skull
2: Skull
3: Skull
4: Both Down
5: Push
6: Push
7: Push/Pow
8: Pow

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 11, 2021 - 12:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
It nerfs Blocking and some teams live and die by Blocking and their ability to advance when they Block (even the 1 square). And you suggest 1 step backwards on 4 and an additional Both Down (with Injury possibility).

No. Just No. And WHY?!?!?
It accomplished NOTHING. It is change for NO REASON.


It doesn't nerf blocking as you think, it's still possible for a bash team to advance with my system. Try it if you want and you will see it.
Also, it makes -2d blocks vs high ST players less good, which is honestly a silly thing. I can't remember how often my Tomb Guardians got -2d blocked and knocked down by Chorfs and Dwarfs.

My system doesn't add another Both Down with AV roll.
There is only 1 Both Down, working exactly the same as now.
The result 3, Both Prone, just places both players on the ground WITHOUT ANY AV roll, they are just placed Prone. If either player has Wrestle he's not placed on the ground. This result has been invented to give teams without starting skills (think of Stunty teams with no G access on most players) a chance to stop Blodgers even with rookie players, but, since I didn't want to make it too good, I removed the AV roll.

The result 4 is supposed to add an almost neutral result. Could have been no effect for Block and Blitz, but I wanted to add some unpredictability, for example if you are trying to block a player and you are adjacent to the pitch boundary line, with Attacker Pushed Back you could be pushed into the crowd. This adds an extra possibility to consider. Also, again, when blocking high ST players they could push you back, without being bogged down by lower ST players.
If you don't like my system, fine, but there is some reasoning behind.


Foad wrote:

I've been using the following for over a decade on FUMBBL:
1: Skull
2: Skull
3: Skull
4: Both Down
5: Push
6: Push
7: Push/Pow
8: Pow

My system doesn't use 3 Skull results because that would mean too much disadvantage for the team who is acting in the turn. Also, just 1 Pow result on 8 would make Blodgers too good vs teams without Tackle.
My system gives a chance to stop Blodgers to every team, even those starting with no core skills.
Last, but not least, my D8 system makes teams without blocking core skills (Chaos, Nurgle, Lizardmen etc.) less frustrating to play at low TV, because there are only 2 turnover results (Skull, Both Down) on 8 results, while, with D6 block dice, they are 2 on 6.
So, a 2d block with D8 block dice fails 1/16, instead of a 2d block with D6 block dice, 1/9.
Playing Vampires, Chaos, Nurgle, Lizardmen and Stunty teams would be less frustrating with my D8 system.


Last edited by MattDakka on Mar 11, 2021 - 12:45; edited 3 times in total
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Mar 11, 2021 - 12:20 Reply with quote Back to top

@Catalyst32: Calm down, calm down.

"Yes" is now at 6. I don't think that that is enough to bring down civilisation as we know it.

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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Stars - Anniversary Bowl - Teams of Stars - 13th March
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 11, 2021 - 13:10 Reply with quote Back to top

OOOPS, TYPO I meant an additional Both Down WITHOUT injury and only wrote "with" instead of "without" by mistake.

But just because a Tean CAN still advance does not mean you have not NERFED Blocking.

Why no an extra POW or an extra PUSH/POW? Why NOT? Because it would clearly be a BUFF to BASH and Blocking?

OR why not an extra PUSH. If you want a more positional game surely just Pushing on 3 results would maintain a closer Balance to the 2 Sides PUSH is on a D6 (it would be only 18.75% PUSH with 3 PUSH results on an D8 and that is close to the 16 to 17% it is now).

OR... leave it alone. Blocking as a Game Mechanic IS NOT BROKEN. And as such there is NO REASON to fix it.




MattDakka wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:
It nerfs Blocking and some teams live and die by Blocking and their ability to advance when they Block (even the 1 square). And you suggest 1 step backwards on 4 and an additional Both Down (with Injury possibility).

No. Just No. And WHY?!?!?
It accomplished NOTHING. It is change for NO REASON.


It doesn't nerf blocking as you think, it's still possible for a bash team to advance with my system. Try it if you want and you will see it.
Also, it makes -2d blocks vs high ST players less good, which is honestly a silly thing. I can't remember how often my Tomb Guardians got -2d blocked and knocked down by Chorfs and Dwarfs.

My system doesn't add another Both Down with AV roll.
There is only 1 Both Down, working exactly the same as now.
The result 3, Both Prone, just places both players on the ground WITHOUT ANY AV roll, they are just placed Prone. If either player has Wrestle he's not placed on the ground. This result has been invented to give teams without starting skills (think of Stunty teams with no G access on most players) a chance to stop Blodgers even with rookie players, but, since I didn't want to make it too good, I removed the AV roll.

The result 4 is supposed to add an almost neutral result. Could have been no effect for Block and Blitz, but I wanted to add some unpredictability, for example if you are trying to block a player and you are adjacent to the pitch boundary line, with Attacker Pushed Back you could be pushed into the crowd. This adds an extra possibility to consider. Also, again, when blocking high ST players they could push you back, without being bogged down by lower ST players.
If you don't like my system, fine, but there is some reasoning behind.


Foad wrote:

I've been using the following for over a decade on FUMBBL:
1: Skull
2: Skull
3: Skull
4: Both Down
5: Push
6: Push
7: Push/Pow
8: Pow

My system doesn't use 3 Skull results because that would mean too much disadvantage for the team who is acting in the turn. Also, just 1 Pow result on 8 would make Blodgers too good vs teams without Tackle.
My system gives a chance to stop Blodgers to every team, even those starting with no core skills.
Last, but not least, my D8 system makes teams without blocking core skills (Chaos, Nurgle, Lizardmen etc.) less frustrating to play at low TV, because there are only 2 turnover results (Skull, Both Down) on 8 results, while, with D6 block dice, they are 2 on 6.
So, a 2d block with D8 block dice fails 1/16, instead of a 2d block with D6 block dice, 1/9.
Playing Vampires, Chaos, Nurgle, Lizardmen and Stunty teams would be less frustrating with my D8 system.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 11, 2021 - 13:18 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
@Catalyst32: Calm down, calm down.

"Yes" is now at 6. I don't think that that is enough to bring down civilisation as we know it.


Grow Up Koadah. I am quite CALM.
I DO NOT SUBCRIBE to the notion that writing in ALL CAPS is YELLING everywhere online.
That is a stupid notion and any of you SHOULD be able to tell that I am only placing extra emphasis on certain words I am using and NOT YELLING by the way I choose my words.

That ALL CAPS crap is for CHAT ROOMS. Not FORUM POSTS. It des not carry over to the rest of the INTERWEBS and it is MORONIC to think that way.
When I speak you should hear something like the words of CONFUCIUS or ARISTOTLE or PLATO speaking. You shoujld hear the words of wisdom of your wisest friend who is NOT YELLING ANYTHING AT ALL (except when I PUNCTUATE with THESE!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

CHAT ROOMS do not change ALL of LANGUAGE just because LANGUAGE is used ONLINE. It is RIDICULOUS to expect so.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Mar 11, 2021 - 14:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
koadah wrote:
@Catalyst32: Calm down, calm down.

"Yes" is now at 6. I don't think that that is enough to bring down civilisation as we know it.


Grow Up Koadah. I am quite CALM.
I DO NOT SUBCRIBE to the notion that writing in ALL CAPS is YELLING everywhere online.
That is a stupid notion and any of you SHOULD be able to tell that I am only placing extra emphasis on certain words I am using and NOT YELLING by the way I choose my words.

That ALL CAPS crap is for CHAT ROOMS. Not FORUM POSTS. It des not carry over to the rest of the INTERWEBS and it is MORONIC to think that way.
When I speak you should hear something like the words of CONFUCIUS or ARISTOTLE or PLATO speaking. You shoujld hear the words of wisdom of your wisest friend who is NOT YELLING ANYTHING AT ALL (except when I PUNCTUATE with THESE!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

CHAT ROOMS do not change ALL of LANGUAGE just because LANGUAGE is used ONLINE. It is RIDICULOUS to expect so.


I pretty much agree with everything you said about the rules. But the way that you insist on saying it suggests that you are the one that needs to grow.

Especially considering Argos_72's response at the top of the page.

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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Stars - Anniversary Bowl - Teams of Stars - 13th March
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