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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 29, 2022 - 19:57 Reply with quote Back to top

I want either Block or Wrestle or Kick or Dirty Player (and a bench, if have 1-2 Dirty Players) on my Linelves.
I tried to randomize skills (especially on my EU team), but, although some times I got lucky and rolled the skills I wanted, most of times (as per average) the bad skills were rolled and I had to cycle the player or play with him and his TV bloat.
1 bad skill is not a problem, but when you get 2-3 (if you go the random route you have to roll a lot) the bloat starts to be a problem and cycling is not often viable.
Moreover, there is the redundancy issue.
For example, getting 2 Sure Hands or 2 Kick Linelves creates redundancy, so, even when you roll "good" or "decent" skills there is the risk they will be redundant, and this narrows down further the list of random skills I want to get.
Then there are other skills which are not bad, but they are not as good as Block/Wrestle as first skill on a Linelf.
For example, Dauntless, Frenzy, Tackle, are not sucky skills on their own, but they don't provide the blocking reliability and the protection I want as soon as possible on my AV 7 Linelves.
In a world full of Block teams (Dwarfs, Chaos Dwarfs, Orcs, Norse) and Tackle spam Block and Wrestle increase the survival chance of the AV 7 Linelves.
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: May 29, 2022 - 20:17 Reply with quote Back to top

tussock wrote:
a few good new skills (Fumbblrooskie),


So, I'm playing in a league that has Fumblerooskie on snotling linemen. I've yet to see it used.

Not sure it's a skill anyone, except maybe elves, would ever use? The circumstances where that's useful and it's bettter or useful in addition to a hand off are vanishingly few...

Quote:

Monstrous Mouth: just, like, no Apo/Regen on a blocking kill by this player, plus what it does.

Any cas or just death?

Quote:

Thick Skull: just add +1 AV, as well as the KO thing, max +2 and 11+.


Not a fan of skills upping stats. To make it desirable it could just act as a sort of upward shift not just for KOs, so on a normal block it's KO on 9-10 and cas on 11-12.

Quote:

Very Long Legs: just let it do +1 MA as well, max +2 and 9, then it's a great skill again.[/list]


what if, instead, it acted as "diving catch for intercepts"? great against bombs, too

Quote:
Break Tackle: just give a 2+ dodge 1/turn, unless marked by a stronger player. Great skill then.


2+ no penalties? :O

Quote:
Pile Driver: so anyway, PDDP is fun, a no-action foul plus sent off on injury doubles only is weak, but fun.


would be fun if free, so you can do 2 fouls per tuen. Agree that ignoring doubles on injury would be nice, also combo with sneaky git.

Quote:
Stable Footing: So when you fail a dodge, stay standing, and end your action. Great skill. Cancelled by Diving Tackle.


what if that dodge is into the end zone? seems like a safe way to score with no dice rolled. I'm assuming you say you stay standing in the target square, with that comment. If it's stay standing in the starting square, it would be fine, but it needs clarifications on interacting with DT then.


Last edited by Java on May 30, 2022 - 15:01; edited 1 time in total
spubbbba



Joined: Jul 31, 2006

Post   Posted: May 29, 2022 - 21:08 Reply with quote Back to top

MarckusOfCamlan wrote:
I believe the Block skill shall be split in 2 : It's the skill everyone wants for almost all their players : that says a lot.


The split :
Offensive Block = Both down don't make your player fall when you are performing a block or a blitz
Defensive Block = Both down don't make your player fall when a block or a blitz is performed versus him


I've seen a similar suggestion for dodge being split into the re-roll and defender stumbles part. You could also have guard be split into offensive and defensive.

The biggest issue with skills is there are a handful which are much better than all the others. That needs to be fixed as there are plenty of players starting with these skills and that would give them an advantage.

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MarckusOfCamlan



Joined: Jul 20, 2017

Post   Posted: May 29, 2022 - 21:28 Reply with quote Back to top

spubbbba wrote:

The biggest issue with skills is there are a handful which are much better than all the others. That needs to be fixed as there are plenty of players starting with these skills and that would give them an advantage.


That's easy : just give those players both splitted skills.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: May 29, 2022 - 22:23 Reply with quote Back to top

spubbbba wrote:

The biggest issue with skills is there are a handful which are much better than all the others. That needs to be fixed as there are plenty of players starting with these skills and that would give them an advantage.


I don't really see why it needs to be fixed.

All this "fixing" is turning into a dogs breakfast.

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JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: May 29, 2022 - 23:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Stable footing needs to be nerfed. The old Stand Firm was too strong.
I'd suggest you stay on your feet, but that's a turnover nonetheless. This way, you keep marking players and you dont lose the ball if you have it, but you still fail your turn.
Having an action you can try with no risk of turnover whatsoever is, imho, against the spirit of the game.

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MarckusOfCamlan



Joined: Jul 20, 2017

Post   Posted: May 29, 2022 - 23:10 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:

I don't really see why it needs to be fixed.

All this "fixing" is turning into a dogs breakfast.


Because all teams seems alike and play alike because of this unbalance.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: May 29, 2022 - 23:17 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm seeing more variety within rosters than ever before. Between rosters, no, it's become all bash even more than it used to be, except for the cheeseball Underworld and Skaven rosters, and a little midrange here and there.

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MarckusOfCamlan



Joined: Jul 20, 2017

Post   Posted: May 29, 2022 - 23:34 Reply with quote Back to top

That's the point : playing pass has been nerfed. Playing throw team mate has been nerfed (especially with Daemons of Tzeentch teams). Leaping above your opponent has been nerfed. Remain mainly field control hoping to damage your opponent team more than he damages yours to take the advantage. The different games looks more alike than ever.

The last of those nerf was probably wise (even if it screw some teams), but the first 2 absolutly not.

And by reducing diversity in the playstyles available, you remove some fun from the game.

I'm not saying I'm having no fun anymore at all; I actually have quite a lot of fun with my Khorne team. But some of my favorite team got their unique ultra-fun playstyle broken.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 29, 2022 - 23:53 Reply with quote Back to top

MarckusOfCamlan wrote:
Playing throw team mate has been nerfed.

With multiple rr per turn throw team mate sequence is easier. I'd say it has been indirectly buffed, not nerfed. I don't know Daemons of Tzeentch though, I talk only about official teams.


As an aside, about skills: I'd like there was a requisite to get certain skills.
For example, I'd like that, in order to have MB, the player had ST 4 or higher.
That would decrease a bit the easy MB spam bash teams do. Casualties should be more a consequence of quantity of blocks than quality of blocks (apart from the obvious exceptions of Big Guys and other high ST players).
MarckusOfCamlan



Joined: Jul 20, 2017

Post   Posted: May 30, 2022 - 00:42 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:

With multiple rr per turn throw team mate sequence is easier.


Pass skills used to be usable to boost your chances to throw a team mate. Not anymore. RR stacking doesn't count as it's not a playstyle that has been buffed that way but all of them.

=> Building a team around throw team mate is much much harder. And indeed, Daemon of Tzetchn were good at that and aren't anymore.


Quote:
For example, I'd like that, in order to have MB, the player had ST 4 or higher.
That would decrease a bit the easy MB spam bash teams do.


I like that idea in theory, but I fear it'd boost always the same players allowing them to snownball.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 30, 2022 - 00:57 Reply with quote Back to top

MarckusOfCamlan wrote:

Pass skills used to be usable to boost your chances to throw a team mate. Not anymore. RR stacking doesn't count as it's not a playstyle that has been buffed that way but all of them.

That's true. Official teams' Big Guys didn't take Pass though (Block and Pro have higher priority in the build), so, compared to the old ruleset, the TTM is easier.
Moreover, Pass improved the odds of the throw, but you could not use more than a rr for the other parts of the TTM sequence, such as Really Stupid, Always Hungry, handing off the ball, landing, GFI, dodges etc.


Last edited by MattDakka on May 30, 2022 - 00:59; edited 1 time in total
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: May 30, 2022 - 00:59 Reply with quote Back to top

MarckusOfCamlan wrote:
koadah wrote:

I don't really see why it needs to be fixed.

All this "fixing" is turning into a dogs breakfast.


Because all teams seems alike and play alike because of this unbalance.


Block has been good for a long time. Wrestle came in and weakened it a little.
Dodge has been good for a long time too.

I don't think that block and dodge are the problem here.

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MarckusOfCamlan



Joined: Jul 20, 2017

Post   Posted: May 30, 2022 - 01:50 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:

I don't think that block and dodge are the problem here.


I'm pretty sure it is. Even the introduction of Wrestle did not reduce the willingness to take Block over any other skill in most cases.

They added a slight counter to an overpowerfull skill; that wasn't the right option.

Dodge had Tackle to counter it much before Block had Wrestle. And Tackle is a better counter to Dodge than Wrestle to Block. And even with that, Dodge is still above most skills (besides block).

By the way, for most human history, slavery was a thing. I doubt the argument "it has been like that for a very long time" can be a valid argument by itself.
MarckusOfCamlan



Joined: Jul 20, 2017

Post   Posted: May 30, 2022 - 02:10 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:

That's true. Official teams' Big Guys didn't take Pass though (Block and Pro have higher priority in the build)


Yes but you could if you wanted to. Now this strategy isn't open at all. And I assure you, even if you don't care about Daemon of Tzenctch (my favourite team) it was key and fun to build a pink horror to make it very good at throwing your blue horrors.

And as it's a non official team, it's a combination of Games Workshop AND FUMBBL community decisions that made this strategy unvailable to pink horrors.


MattDakka wrote:

so, compared to the old ruleset, the TTM is easier.


You already said that argument, and I already answered I find it not a valid one as RR stacking doesn't buff a specific playstyle but all of them.

I would appreciate if you could avoid repeating over and over the same argument without changing a word when it had made clear by the person you are talking to he disagree with this argument. It would avoid giving the impression you don't car about what others say.

Oh, yeah, by the way :

MattDakka wrote:

TTM sequence, such as Really Stupid, Always Hungry, handing off the ball, landing, GFI, dodges etc.


Really Stupid and Always Hungry don't apply to Halfling team (to stay among officals) nor daemon of Tzentch. Handling of the ball can be covered with catch, GFI with sure feet (and at some point it may have cover landing), and most players who can be thrown have dodges to ... dodge.

But anyway, as I said, 3 time already, RR stacking doesn't buff a specific playstyle but all of them, so I find your demonstration pointless. Those who agrees with you on this would have already agreed with you when you posted this argument for the first time. Those who agree with my counter argument would have already agreed with it when I first said it.

Can we move on ?

And I assure you, there are a lot more interesting things to say around "how could we make the game better" than juste repeating over and over the same argument to pretend everyhing is fine.

Best regards. Idea
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