koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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 Posted:
May 30, 2022 - 02:31 |
 
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MarckusOfCamlan
Joined: Jul 20, 2017
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May 30, 2022 - 03:15 |
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| koadah wrote: |
I'll stick with the old if the new doesn't look any better. |
You can't know if the new is better if you don't look at new proposals and new things with an open mind.
When I've heard there would be new rules for Bloodbowl, I was initially thrilled; especially as it was claimed to improve gameplay diversity. But When I saw the result, I was quite disapointed and stopped playing for a very very long time. So I'm quite happy Tussock opened this discussion.
PS) You don't stick with the old but to whatever Games workshop says. 2020 rules are anything but old nor proven as more fun or more balanced than the previous rules set.
Like many here, I'm forcing myself to play the 2020 rules set... but so far I prefer the previous ones, even if I feel there's something interesting into randomising skills.
You are not forced to participate to this discussion if discussing about "what might be" is anoying you. Other people, like me, like theorycraft discussion. And you can check, it's even the name of this forum thread. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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May 30, 2022 - 04:29 |
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| MarckusOfCamlan wrote: | | koadah wrote: |
I'll stick with the old if the new doesn't look any better. |
You can't know if the new is better if you don't look at new proposals and new things with an open mind. |
I said "doesn't look any better".
You won't "know" what is better just from theory crafting. You'll need the rubber to hit the road to "know" anything.
| MarckusOfCamlan wrote: |
When I've heard there would be new rules for Bloodbowl, I was initially thrilled; especially as it was claimed to improve gameplay diversity. But When I saw the result, I was quite disapointed and stopped playing for a very very long time. So I'm quite happy Tussock opened this discussion. |
I didn't see any reason to be "thrilled", or hear anyone say that the new rules would "improve gameplay diversity".
The new rules appear to be designed to reduce gameplay diversity.
I just don't know why you think that this is the fault of block and dodge.
If you don't like them, stick to 1000-1200TV where there are fewer skills about.
At low TV the rules are tolerable. At higher TV I stick to 2016.
| MarckusOfCamlan wrote: |
PS) You don't stick with the old but to whatever Games workshop says. |
LOL. Once you have bought the box, it is yours. You can do whatever you want with it.
You don't even need to buy the box.
I was playing dungeon bowl this weekend using the downloaded rules & tiles from 2002.
I'd be pretty astonished if the new rules were any more fun.
| MarckusOfCamlan wrote: |
2020 rules are anything but old nor proven as more fun or more balanced than the previous rules set.
Like many here, I'm forcing myself to play the 2020 rules set... but so far I prefer the previous ones, even if I feel there's something interesting into randomising skills.
You are not forced to participate to this discussion if discussing about "what might be" is anoying you. Other people, like me, like theorycraft discussion. And you can check, it's even the name of this forum thread. |
My point is that the different play styles issue isn't down to block & dodge. e.g. Passing has been made even worse. People seem to be discouraged from using elves.
Block & dodge help keep players on their feet so affect the strategic part of the game as TV rises. I wouldn't change them.
You can buff/nerf your other skills as you like. |
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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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May 30, 2022 - 12:00 |
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| MarckusOfCamlan wrote: |
Really Stupid and Always Hungry don't apply to Halfling team (to stay among officals) nor daemon of Tzentch. Handling of the ball can be covered with catch, GFI with sure feet (and at some point it may have cover landing), and most players who can be thrown have dodges to ... dodge.
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Not arguing with you, it's true, but to cover all the rolls you must build a Halfling (to stick to your example) and keep him alive. It's possible, but it takes some time. With multiple rr you can theorically do a TTM since game 1 with better odds than the old rules.
Moreover, if we want to nitpick, with old rules you could have, with some luck, +AG at 6 SPPs with a Halfling, now to have AG 5 (for better landing) you need 18 SPPs, and there is no MVP nomination, so it's harder to focus the SPPs on the players you want to develop.
Dodge, I would not rely on Halflings' Dodge in a world full of Dwarfs and Chorfs, so having multiple rr help to dodge too. The advantage of multiple rr compared to having to take the skills is that you can rr the failed rolls without having a specific skill to cover the roll (which can be sometimes cancelled by a counter skill such as Tackle).
Also, Treemen don't have negatraits and they can use rrs without risking Loner failure, so, again, multiple rr helps to TTM without having to take Pass like in BB2016 (which, anyway, would take ages with BB2020 rules, even if Pass could still be used to TTM).
Ok, it's not a Daemons of Tzeentch team, I understand it has been nerfed, but official BB2020 rules didn't consider Secret League teams.
| MarckusOfCamlan wrote: |
But anyway, as I said, 3 time already, RR stacking doesn't buff a specific playstyle but all of them, so I find your demonstration pointless. |
I'm not sure to understand, anyway, multiple rr helps all teams, indeed (if you meant that), but more specifically the sequences based on rolling single dice (for example passing, landing, dodging, handing off) which used to be high risk high reward. Now, with multiple rr, they are lower risk, high reward. Even Orcs can move the ball quite safely by GFI + handing off, despite Animosity. So this is a buff to bash teams in the ball movement field, an unnecessary buff.
I mean, it's a bit stupid to nerf Elves passing game and then buffing the bash running game with the multiple rr.
About building a Daemons of Tzeentch: if you stick to official rules, with Season Re-Draft, it's harder to build a team to do the TTM tactic. So, it's not just a matter of Pass, the real issue is you can't build the team, generally speaking.
Just to be clear: I'm not a fan of BB2020 rules, if you were thinking that. In my opinion, apart from Clawmb and Kick-Off table nerf, they suck. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %30, %2022 - %12:%May; edited 2 times in total |
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moph
Joined: Sep 16, 2020
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May 30, 2022 - 12:19 |
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The costs of Skills TV wise (not SPP) could be set after usefullness and not after primary, secondary and random.
For example Block, dodge, could cost 40k for every player, and something like hail mary pass 10k. That could make the random skills more interesting.
Just an idea... |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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May 30, 2022 - 12:23 |
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Yes, but it's not just a matter of cost. The problem of having a sucky skill is that it takes a skill slot which could be used to take a better skill.
Players don't have 10 skill slots, they have only 6, and most of them will get 1-2 skills. If you waste 1-2 skill slot with bad skills you are ruining the player.
There is a big difference between HE with chosen Wrestle or Block spammed on 5 Linelves and HE with 5 Linemen with random Shadowing, Fend, Frenzy, Kick, Strip Ball (1 skill on each of them).
The first build is more expensive but stronger (Block and Wrestle provide protection and blocking reliability to fight back the opponents marking the Elves, thus reducing the dodges).
In short, if I need to cut (do the Linelf duty of blocking and acting as screen) I need just a knife (Block/Wrestle), not a Swiss Army knife without the knife (with many fancy tools but lacking the tool I really need).
The more expensive a player is, the more effective his skill build must be.
On a Zombie you can even take a so-so skill, he's easily replaceable, but on an expensive Lineman you can't. |
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dolphinandrew
Joined: May 09, 2017
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May 30, 2022 - 12:48 |
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In my opinion, the risk in taking random skills should be the risk of not getting nice synergies, either for the individual player or for the team as a whole. It shouldn't be the risk of getting skills that aren't very good when just considered in isolation. |
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BN-DoobllZkull
Joined: May 30, 2022
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May 30, 2022 - 12:48 |
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In agility or general, I would really like to see TAUNT: The opposite of fend. The opponent HAS to follow up on a block or blitz.
Agree on most except for claw.
Also, Iron hard skin should be a "ignore all modifiers to the armour roll, except for assists in fouling". This way it counters chainsaws, claw, mighty blow (the armour part) and becomes an interesting skill, not just a very specialised one. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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May 30, 2022 - 18:29 |
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My thinking is, it's simply not worth 40k to have two primary skills on most line players, but two primaries at 30k is kinda sweet. Maybe this is less true with elves and GA access, but even then as soon as the money or season clock indicates I can risk a dead skill, every 10k I save in the following season is 10k more to redraft and 10k less my opponents have to use against me over the course of the season. So if I roll a bad skill and a good skill on two different players, that's way better than picking a good skill. I get a bonus bad skill now, which is generally better than no skill at all (not always), and next season I'm 10k stronger to start and cheaper to stay.
Ditto secondary skills. Often I'll pick Block on a lineman just to have the extra Block for 20k, and then when he hits 8 more points I'll roll a S skill, hoping for Guard or Mighty Blow, or maybe Grab, Juggernaut, Stand Firm or Break Tackle. That's 6 skills I kinda want on a player I genuinely wouldn't think to rehire if he'd just hand-picked Block and Dodge.
Just don't take randoms on players you already care about. Except Rat Ogres lol. |
_________________
Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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May 30, 2022 - 19:10 |
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| JackassRampant wrote: |
Ditto secondary skills. Often I'll pick Block on a lineman just to have the extra Block for 20k, and then when he hits 8 more points I'll roll a S skill, hoping for Guard or Mighty Blow, or maybe Grab, Juggernaut, Stand Firm or Break Tackle.
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I adopted this approach with a Zombie:
https://fumbbl.com/p/player?player_id=14845996
who randomized Wrestle first skill, then fished for either random Guard or MB with the second skill up.
He got Brawler so I fired him, but this approach is great for cheap Linemen.
As an aside, about picking the first skill and randomizing the second one. Well, since I'm not compelled to roll the second skill up (unless I reach the last SPPs threshold for the stat+), sometimes I deliberately forgo to take the second skill up in order to keep the player cheap and not to risk a bad random Primary skill, I save SPPs and wait to get a random Secondary skill instead. I talk about cheap Linemen (Orcs, Zombies), so, not Elven ones. |
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Kransky
Joined: Sep 12, 2005
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May 31, 2022 - 17:21 |
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I mean I can see why you would fire a wrestle+brawler zombie but I could make an argument about keeping him - that’s a combination that has a bit of a perk - stick them on the front line and let them throw blocks - if you roll both down and the opponent has block, use the wrestle, otherwise use the brawler to re-roll the both down.
Wrestle + brawler might not be the best random combination but it’s certainly not the worst. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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May 31, 2022 - 17:29 |
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I never said it is the worst, but it wasn't what I was looking for.
I rate only Guard and MB worth to be taken on a Zombie, otherwise he gets too expensive for his real value in game.
If I pay a Zombie 70 TV I want him with either Guard or MB after Wrestle/Block.
Guard and MB are the best S skills so I aimed to them. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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May 31, 2022 - 22:40 |
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Kick-DP zombie is best zombie. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Jun 01, 2022 - 05:07 |
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Stand Firm would be fun on a Zombie. Grab too. |
_________________
Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Jun 01, 2022 - 05:52 |
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you guys are nuts. i almost fired my block guard zombie because it was too much tv for what it did. i'd never pay 80k for a stand firm block zombie, when i could just have 2 zombies instead.
now that i can do it, i'll never pay 60k for a block zombie. it's not worth it. |
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