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Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2021 - 04:09 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't have a copy of the 2020 Rules. Going to buy it but not for awhile.

I DO NOT UNDERSTAND the new skills progression rules.
I knw you can get Random Skill at 1 SPP.
And you can take skills of your CHOICE at another SPP.
And you can save SPP to BUY DOUBLE that you want and yada yada yada.
OR maybe I don't know ANYTHING!!!

I don't get it.
So please POLITELY talk to me like I am an IDIOT and explain this to me.
(I think that means talk to me like you normally would under the FUMBBL Forums rules. Politely. And like I am an Idiot. Shocked)

Specifically this though...
Suppose I want to 1st take a Random Skill and THEN because of that Random Skill I think... THIS SPECIFIC SKILL (Normal or Double) would combine very well with that Random Skill I took. How many SPP do I need for that?
OR
Suppose I fell like all of my players need a Specific Skill like Block. But... whatever other skills don't matter that much. SO maybe I want to try to save some TW (or TR or whatever they call it now) by just taking a Random Skill next. How many SPPS does that take?

Does anybody understand this convoluted system of skilling Players?

And isn't 1 of the things that has always been a BARRIER to new Players trying to take up Blood Bowl as a game the issue of how COMPLICATED it can be to understand that many rules of the game and get started comprehending every little nuance in the game.

Don't get my wrong. I LOVE this about the game. But I have been involved in the game since LRB2 back in the late 80's and really 90's.
But OMG why is it GW cannot seem to embrace any that is LESS complex in each iteration of the Rules? Do they NOT want to make MORE money by having MORE Players/Customers.
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2021 - 08:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Hey boss, I don't have the book in front of me but I would answer specifically if I could.

It has a skill progression table. I am making up the numbers but it goes something like this.

1st skill - 3Spp Random 6SppChosen 8Spp Random double 10SppChosen Double 12Spp RandomStat
2nd skill - 6Spp Random 8SppChosen 12Spp Random double.........


Then it continues. I wish I could be more specific but I can't. I'll send you a PM when I get home if I get the chance.
HimalayaP1C7



Joined: Feb 03, 2021

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2021 - 10:03 Reply with quote Back to top

If you make a team in the test division, then adjust the amount of XPP on each player you can test out all the scenarios and the skill up process for 2020 should start to become a clearer. Helped me to get a better idea of how it works.
SkittleMosaic



Joined: May 17, 2018

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2021 - 10:11 Reply with quote Back to top

There is a table or 2 that lays it out pretty well but this is how I remember it.

Getting a chosen primary skill or random secondary at each level costs 6/8/12/16/20/30. Halve it for a random primary, +6 if you want a chosen secondary, and +12 for a random stat (or chosen secondary if you don't like the stat you rolled.). If the final level up is a secondary/stat then it costs +10 and +20 respectively (40 and 50 total).

Your first scenario;
First skill is random primary so 6 halved or 3spp. Second chosen primary would be 8, or a second chosen secondary would be 8+6 or 14. In total it would cost 11 or 17 spp.

Your second scenario;
First skill is chosen primary so 6. Second skill is a random primary so 8 halved or 4, or a random secondary so 8. In total it would cost 10 or 14 spp.

EDIT: Normal skills are called primaries and double skills are called secondaries.


Last edited by SkittleMosaic on Aug 13, 2021 - 05:09; edited 3 times in total
Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2021 - 10:12
FUMBBL Staff
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It's not exactly rocket science.

You collect SPP (mostly) as before. However, instead of getting a skill roll at a certain SPP amount, you "spend" them by buying skills. Naming has changed slightly, where you have "primary" instead of normal and "secondary" instead of double skills.

At various SPP costs (which depends on how many skill rolls you have done before), you can choose a "random primary", "chosen primary or random secondary", "chosen secondary" or a "characteristic" (stat). Costs increase as you move to the later options in that list.

You can save up SPP until the point where you have enough SPP to buy a random characteristic, at which point you *must* buy a skill. Note that you do not have to pick a stat at this point, but can choose to take a random primary. This would leave you with enough SPP to buy another random primary should you choose to (although the second one will be slightly more expensive).

There is a table of costs in the rule book which I won't replicate here because it's not all that important. For FUMBBL, the site will show you when you can skill up a player, and when you must, together with a fairly reasonable UI to guide you through the options.

Even on tabletop, the process of skilling your players is pretty straight-forward. It's explained well in the rule book, and there's a very clear table of SPP costs TV costs. If you want to complain about how complexity is increasing, it's better to look at skills and how they interact which is a crazy mess. Practically arbitrary choices for which skills work if you have a tackle zone or not, and which skills work during your opponent's Blitz kickoff sequence (pro tip: it's not technically considered a player turn). Player skilling is honestly pretty trivial.
Chivite



Joined: Sep 04, 2017

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2021 - 14:05 Reply with quote Back to top

it truly is a bit of a mess.

they wanted to simplify the rules and streamline it.... then they got tangled with keywords and activation sequences and shit.
dodge not working during a "blitz!" or mighty blow not working if the oponent double skulled is just weird as heck
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2021 - 16:07 Reply with quote Back to top

One day, in the dim and distant future, it would be great to be able to alter the cost of skills. +ST is way too expensive. Ideally, the cost would depend on how much ST you have already.

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Chivite



Joined: Sep 04, 2017

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2021 - 16:43 Reply with quote Back to top

boy oh boy you must be delighted of the b2020 price of +st uh?
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 12, 2021 - 16:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Chivite wrote:
boy oh boy you must be delighted of the b2020 price of +st uh?


That is what I meant. I can live with the 50. Very Happy

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Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2021 - 05:00 Reply with quote Back to top

pielover101 wrote:
There is a table or 2 that lays it out pretty well but this is how I remember it.

Getting a chosen primary skill or random secondary at each level costs 6/8/12/16/20/30. Halve it for a random primary, +6 if you want a chosen secondary, and +12 for a random skill (or chosen secondary if you don't like the stat you rolled.). If the final level up is a secondary/stat then it costs +10 and +20 respectively (40 and 50 total).

Your first scenario;
First skill is random primary so 6 halved or 3spp. Second chosen primary would be 8, or a second chosen secondary would be 8+6 or 14. In total it would cost 11 or 17 spp.

Your second scenario;
First skill is chosen primary so 6. Second skill is a random primary so 8 halved or 4, or a random secondary so 8. In total it would cost 10 or 14 spp.

EDIT: Normal skills are called primaries and double skills are called secondaries.



OK that makes much more sense. I just had not seen it explained anywhere.
And the only tables I had seen just showed things like IF a player took all Randoms vs All Chosen skills.

So I suppose COST is based more on the SPP each player has... meaning obviously if Player 1 did get to Legend with all Random Primaries it would be much cheaper than Player 2 with all Chosen Secondaries.

WHICH gets me to thinking... what kind of player could you make with ALL Chosen Secondaries. WOW. I have not considered that before.
I usually think about how I would build each player with ALL Singes and 1 Double (and then rethink it AFTER they get 1 Double what I would do if they gained a 2nd Double).

The possibilities now are ENDLESS in multiples of 6 (skill choices).
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2021 - 05:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Christer wrote:
It's not exactly rocket science.

You collect SPP (mostly) as before. However, instead of getting a skill roll at a certain SPP amount, you "spend" them by buying skills. Naming has changed slightly, where you have "primary" instead of normal and "secondary" instead of double skills.

At various SPP costs (which depends on how many skill rolls you have done before), you can choose a "random primary", "chosen primary or random secondary", "chosen secondary" or a "characteristic" (stat). Costs increase as you move to the later options in that list.

You can save up SPP until the point where you have enough SPP to buy a random characteristic, at which point you *must* buy a skill. Note that you do not have to pick a stat at this point, but can choose to take a random primary. This would leave you with enough SPP to buy another random primary should you choose to (although the second one will be slightly more expensive).

There is a table of costs in the rule book which I won't replicate here because it's not all that important. For FUMBBL, the site will show you when you can skill up a player, and when you must, together with a fairly reasonable UI to guide you through the options.

Even on tabletop, the process of skilling your players is pretty straight-forward. It's explained well in the rule book, and there's a very clear table of SPP costs TV costs. If you want to complain about how complexity is increasing, it's better to look at skills and how they interact which is a crazy mess. Practically arbitrary choices for which skills work if you have a tackle zone or not, and which skills work during your opponent's Blitz kickoff sequence (pro tip: it's not technically considered a player turn). Player skilling is honestly pretty trivial.


Thanks for the INFO.

But this IS a more complex Skill Method. Before skill 1 was always at 6spps. Now it is at 4 different points. And the 2nd Skill was at 16spps. Now the 2nd Skill can come at 10 different points (if I factored that right).

Before it was 6 different amounts of SPPS to remember all the way to Legend. It is now more difficult by the time you have 2 skills and infinitely more complex thereafter.

And, yes of course, I could complain about other aspects that are even more complex. But that does not negate that THIS ASPECT of the game is part of what is more complex about the game AND thereby a BARRIER for entry of NEW PLAYERS and something some experienced players will choose not to learn.

Personally I welcome the complexity. I enjoy the complexity. But them I am a Genius and a Weirdo who has been playing this game since the 80's. Complexity is where I live.
I have had a career for a decade or more in Writing and Journalism, Acting/Dance/Music/Comedy/etc, Sports Officiating, Sales/Distribution/Warehousing and I am transitioning into Sports Administration and tomorrow I will be applying for a job as a Scout/Journalist to maybe get back into that seasonally.

So complex suits me just fine. But it does keep our numbers SMALL in this game. IF it weren't for the INTERWEBS there would often be NO ONE for us to PLAY AGAINST/WITH.
SkittleMosaic



Joined: May 17, 2018

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2021 - 05:41 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah there are some cool possibilities. The biggest consideration for long term development I've found is for ball carriers. A 1-13 on a random stat can give you Ma and a 14-16 can give you Ag, which is achievable several times with the spp a ball carrier generates. So for example for a Bull Centaur you could choose Block and Sure Hands, then have up to 3 goes at stats to try and get Ag and take Ma if you don't get 14+ (if you don't get it on the third go just take Dodge), followed by Break Tackle and/or Dodge. Total spp cost is 122-138 with an Ma 8, Block, Sure Hands, Dodge, Break Tackle at worst, and an Ma 7, Ag 2+, Block, Sure Hands, Dodge at best.

Wardancer's can happily go for stats for Ag from the start and settle for Ma/MB/Juggernaut if they miss.

I'm really fond of Norse linemen taking a couple of random primaries (as they have Block out the gate you're happy with everything but Shadowing) and if they're good save up for stats, happily taking Av to keep the TV down and the skills safe, or Ma/Ag if its a Sure Hands or sacker piece. Only 31 spp for the first 3 level ups and as low as 80k TV.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2021 - 12:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
...
And, yes of course, I could complain about other aspects that are even more complex. But that does not negate that THIS ASPECT of the game is part of what is more complex about the game AND thereby a BARRIER for entry of NEW PLAYERS and something some experienced players will choose not to learn.
...


It is more complex than before, but it is still not really complex.

New coaches at least have the advantage that they do not have to unlearn the old way, which they may have preferred. Wink

It is also listed on page 71 of the rule book. The weak-hearted and/or feeble-minded will have given up long before then. Twisted Evil

Edit: Being able to plot a path rather than having to hope for doubles or stat-ups is probably easier for many new coaches to handle.

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Last edited by koadah on Aug 13, 2021 - 13:19; edited 1 time in total
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2021 - 12:23 Reply with quote Back to top

With BB2020 you can build a better Legend player by picking the skills, but the questions are:
- how many games will it take, considering the MVP is random again and worth only 4 SPPs?
- how long can you keep this Legend player, considering Season Redraft? I guess 2 Seasons or 3 maximum, that means, on FUMBBL, 30-45 games.

So, is it really worth the effort to build a Legend player or is it better to just get a single essential stat boost (for example: +AG for a WD, +MA/AG for a ball carrier or +PA for a Thrower)?
Maybe it's better not bothering building Legends anymore because they will not last long anyway. Maybe it's better to spread the skills across the players and build a team and not a single Legend freak.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2021 - 13:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Many people won't use seasons at all or will use different parameters. The Competitive division is only one part of Fumbbl.

For many people, 1350 is way too stingy.

Legends are NOT dead. Mr. Green

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