FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Bellenrode

Joined: May 02, 2021

Posted: Nov 11, 2021 - 13:31

Sp00keh wrote:

An elf with 9x Passing skills would mean Passing becomes much stronger, and no longer situational though, I guess that's Koadah's point

It does still mean the rest of the team suck at passing though

That's because Dark Elves isn't meant to be a passing team, but the running team (of underhanded brawlers). At least compared to other Elf teams.

The Runner being decent at passing is meant as a reinforcement of "I run with the ball and in case of trouble I Dump-off the ball to someone else, because the whole team can catch it" stratagem.

It's the same deal with Orcs and Necromantic: they had been changed to be more in-line with their fluff, and to provide more actual gameplay variety.

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Nov 11, 2021 - 13:44

The fact is: if you want to run the ball with Orcs, either a Blitzer or Goblin is better because both are faster than the Orc Thrower.
Orcs would be better off with a pure Runner, rather than a slow Thrower (who is not even in-line with their fluff). The Orc Thrower looks like a legacy positional from 2nd edition BB, where Orcs had Throwers and Catchers.

maznaz

Joined: Jan 26, 2004

Posted: Nov 11, 2021 - 13:55

Bellenrode wrote:

Sp00keh wrote:

An elf with 9x Passing skills would mean Passing becomes much stronger, and no longer situational though, I guess that's Koadah's point

It does still mean the rest of the team suck at passing though

That's because Dark Elves isn't meant to be a passing team, but the running team (of underhanded brawlers). At least compared to other Elf teams.

The Runner being decent at passing is meant as a reinforcement of "I run with the ball and in case of trouble I Dump-off the ball to someone else, because the whole team can catch it" stratagem.

It's the same deal with Orcs and Necromantic: they had been changed to be more in-line with their fluff, and to provide more actual gameplay variety.

Making dark elves as good with the ball as orcs is not putting them in line with any fluff. Removing an entire aspect of their strategic options is not providing more gameplay variety. Not even really sure how you came to either of those conclusions.

JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: Nov 11, 2021 - 14:18

Hyperbole won't make you right maznaz. While I agree with you, ag4 is great at catching and no orc has that.
Pass 3+ then catch 2+ and another potential handoff 2+ is way batter than any orc team can do.

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Bellenrode

Joined: May 02, 2021

Posted: Nov 11, 2021 - 14:25

MattDakka wrote:

The fact is: if you want to run the ball with Orcs, either a Blitzer or Goblin is better because both are faster than the Orc Thrower.
Orcs would be better off with a pure Runner, rather than a slow Thrower (who is not even in-line with their fluff). The Orc Thrower looks like a legacy positional from 2nd edition BB, where Orcs had Throwers and Catchers.

Yes, that's exactly what I am talking about: Orcs are extra discouraged to pass the ball now. Not only you have to pick up the ball - you also have to pass an additional check just to be able to pass it (nevermind catching it).

maznaz wrote:

Making dark elves as good with the ball as orcs is not putting them in line with any fluff.

1) They are better with the ball than the Orcs are. At least when it comes to picking it up and catching it.

2)

Quote:

Evil beyond belief, skilled without doubt, the Dark Elves take to the pitch to show the world their superiority. Dark Elf teams prefer a malevolent and spiteful running game over the passing of their goodly cousins. Backed up by the ruthless Witch Elves and dangerous assassins, a Dark Elf team has all the tools to power through rather than around any opposition line.

maznaz wrote:

Removing an entire aspect of their strategic options is not providing more gameplay variety. Not even really sure how you came to either of those conclusions.

That's because you don't understand how limiting Dark Elves' access to passing forces their coaches to play around that particular weakness. If you want a true passing team, then you have to look elsewhere, as hinted in the Dark Elves' description.

I guess it's easier for me to understand and accept, since I don't have any bias when judging any particular team, while you "had literally hunderds of games of them", "loved their versatility" and "hate dark elves now".

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Nov 11, 2021 - 14:38

Bellenrode wrote:

MattDakka wrote:

The fact is: if you want to run the ball with Orcs, either a Blitzer or Goblin is better because both are faster than the Orc Thrower.
Orcs would be better off with a pure Runner, rather than a slow Thrower (who is not even in-line with their fluff). The Orc Thrower looks like a legacy positional from 2nd edition BB, where Orcs had Throwers and Catchers.

Yes, that's exactly what I am talking about: Orcs are extra discouraged to pass the ball now. Not only you have to pick up the ball - you also have to pass an additional check just to be able to pass it (nevermind catching it).

Funnily, with the multiple rr per turn a rookie Goblin is better than a rookie Orc Thrower to throw a Long Bomb because the Goblin doesn't have to check the Animosity. Very Happy

Orcs should not have a Thrower at all. It's totally against their fluff. They like a bashing running game through the opponent team, it's clearly written in the fluff. So, if the designers really intended to match the fluff they should have removed the Orc Thrower from the roster. I don't think they follow a logic. Otherwise the DE Assassin would not have PA 5+, worse than any Orc player but the Troll.
I agree that DE are supposed to be the "bash running" (relatively speaking) elven team of the 4, but that doesn't mean their players should be as good (or worse, if you consider the DE Assassin) as Orcs at throwing the ball either. They are still Elves.

Bellenrode

Joined: May 02, 2021

Posted: Nov 11, 2021 - 16:19

MattDakka wrote:

I don't think they follow a logic. Otherwise the DE Assassin would not have PA 5+, worse than any Orc player but the Troll.

I agree that DE are supposed to be the "bash running" (relatively speaking) elven team of the 4, but that doesn't mean their players should be as good (or worse, if you consider the DE Assassin) as Orcs at throwing the ball either. They are still Elves.

I would argue there is a logic. What kind of logic? That certain players are better at passing than others, thereby reinforcing the idea of dedicated throwers and making them central to that aspect of the game (passing).

This hits Elven teams in particular, because in the past any Elf was a thrower and a catcher rolled into one. Does this mean Elves are Elves no longer?

My understanding is that Agility 4 no longer means that Elves get the monopoly for superb passing, but at the same time they are still good at dodging, picking up the ball and catching. So there is a gameplay shift: instead of making passes left and right you want to hand it off.

Or you can get a dedicated thrower and put some players in receiving position, because all of your players are still catchers, even if they are not all throwers anymore.

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Nov 11, 2021 - 17:23

So, Elves have to hand off while the Orcs have to pass?
Actually everybody (Orcs and Elves) will try to run/hand off the ball if possible, so I don't think there is such difference.
Orcs are supposed to run rather than pass so they should not have a Thrower, it's really simple.
If designers really wanted to make the teams different, Orcs should have lost the Thrower (we can argue whether Orcs should have a Runner or not, but it's another topic) and no Elf should have PA 5+ (maybe the Witch Elf could have 5+ due to Frenzy, or no PA at all, in WHFB they don't use any ranged weapon for that reason). It makes no sense. A DE Assassin with 5+ PA while a Goblin or Orc Lino has 4+? Ridiculous.

Bellenrode

Joined: May 02, 2021

Posted: Nov 11, 2021 - 17:47

MattDakka wrote:

So, Elves have to hand off while the Orcs have to pass?

With Animosity and AG 3+? You're certainly welcome to try...

In my opinion Orcs have to try to pick it up and run with it, keeping the ball within their cage, so pretty much all they did before.

In case of Elves - all Elves can hand off, some Elves can pass, so they aren't as good as before, but certainly better than Orcs.

MattDakka wrote:

Actually everybody (Orcs and Elves) will try to run/hand off the ball if possible, so I don't think there is such difference.

Run in - yes. Hand off - depends. You won't see Orcs or Undead doing passes or hand offs, unless it becomes absolutely vital to make them.

MattDakka wrote:

Orcs are supposed to run rather than pass so they should not have a Thrower, it's really simple.

Not sure why you keep saying that, because I don't think anybody disagrees with that particular point.

MattDakka wrote:

It makes no sense. A DE Assassin with 5+ PA while a Goblin or Orc Lino has 4+? Ridiculous.

Unless I am missing something Goblins have Stunty, which means they effectively have 5+.

As for the Assassin - he's not the only Elf to have PA this bad. This change only reinforces the previous point: Agility is no longer tied to passing, so being an Elf alone doesn't make you automatically better at it. Unless your team is supposed to be better at passing, in which case some positionals have PA 2+ and 3+.

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Nov 11, 2021 - 18:02

Bellenrode wrote:

In my opinion Orcs have to try to pick it up and run with it, keeping the ball within their cage, so pretty much all they did before.

Exactly. So, not a massive gameplay change, as you said.
Plan A is still running with the ball for all the teams. And yes, since there is Animosity, it's better to run with Orcs unless out of range, making the slow Thrower an illogical player on the Orc roster if not to take Leader on starting team.

Bellenrode wrote:

In case of Elves - all Elves can hand off, some Elves can pass, so they aren't as good as before, but certainly better than Orcs.

But, as passing is not a plan A (Wildly Inaccurate has been added), it's not a great difference. They are better but not that better. A DE Runner punting the ball is worse than an Orc Thrower, and the Orc Thrower is worse than a Goblin to throw a Long Bomb if you have a rr for the pass. It makes no sense. Multiple rr rule has made Pass less useful than it used to be.

Bellenrode wrote:

As for the Assassin - he's not the only Elf to have PA this bad. This change only reinforces the previous point: Agility is no longer tied to passing, so being an Elf alone doesn't make you automatically better at it. Unless your team is supposed to be better at passing, in which case some positionals have PA 2+ and 3+.

Yes, but a DE Assassin is not a simple Elf. He has high Ballistic Skill in WHFB, and he should be good at throwing the ball, for sure better than any Orc, Thrower included. It looks to me self-evident that a DE Assassin should be the player with the best PA on the DE team (removing the DE Runners to prevent positional redundancy).

Sp00keh

Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Posted: Nov 11, 2021 - 18:33

Bellenrode wrote:

Sp00keh wrote:

An elf with 9x Passing skills would mean Passing becomes much stronger, and no longer situational though, I guess that's Koadah's point

It does still mean the rest of the team suck at passing though

That's because Dark Elves isn't meant to be a passing team, but the running team (of underhanded brawlers). At least compared to other Elf teams.

This part of the discussion was actually about HE Thrower, not DE Runner

C0ddlefish

Joined: Sep 17, 2019

Posted: Nov 11, 2021 - 18:39

Stunty no longer adds -1 to the pass, their Pa stat was supposed to build in that deduction already. Hence Bommas and Fungus Flingas being Pa4+ to be the same as the old Ag3 plus stunty

Bellenrode

Joined: May 02, 2021

Posted: Nov 11, 2021 - 18:50

MattDakka wrote:

But, as passing is not a plan A (Wildly Inaccurate has been added), it's not a great difference. They are better but not that better.

Passing may not be a plan A, but there is a difference between someone who can pull off a pass and someone who can't. After all, 2+ into 2+ is not that hard (or even 3+ into 2+). Especially with multiple re-rolls possible.

MattDakka wrote:

A DE Runner punting the ball is worse than an Orc Thrower, and the Orc Thrower is worse than a Goblin to throw a Long Bomb if you have a rr for the pass. It makes no sense. Multiple rr rule has made Pass less useful than it used to be.

Did they though? To my knowledge Pass is still useful for saving re-rolls. Just because you can burn a bunch of re-rolls in a single turn now, it doesn't mean you should.

Also, you keep saying a Goblin is better when it comes to throwing a Long Bomb, while at the same time ommitting that Orc Thrower has Sure Hands, Pass, his movement is equal to Linemen and Big Uns and he succeeds with passes on 3+.

I mean, maybe a Goblin IS better when it comes to throwing a Long Bomb, but this argument is so selective and the scenario itself so unrealistic (how often will you be giving the ball to a Goblin AND throwing a Long Bomb at the same time?) that it can't be taken seriously.

How about calculating picking up the ball and making other things with it than throwing a Long Bomb specifically?

MattDakka wrote:

Yes, but a DE Assassin is not a simple Elf. He has high Ballistic Skill in WHFB, and he should be good at throwing the ball, for sure better than any Orc, Thrower included.

I don't really see the point of bringing up WHFB while at the same time contesting the official changes to Blood Bowl. WHFB is WHFB, Blood Bowl is Blood Bowl.

MattDakka wrote:

It looks to me self-evident that a DE Assassin should be the player with the best PA on the DE team (removing the DE Runners to prevent positional redundancy).

It looks self-evident to you, because you got used to the old rules, in which all Elves were equally good at passing (thanks to their AG4). That's basically all there is to it.

Sp00keh wrote:

This part of the discussion was actually about HE Thrower, not DE Runner

My mistake then. I thought you meant the team as a whole and other posters were talking about DE, so I assumed you also did.

C0ddlefish wrote:

Stunty no longer adds -1 to the pass, their Pa stat was supposed to build in that deduction already. Hence Bommas and Fungus Flingas being Pa4+ to be the same as the old Ag3 plus stunty

I stand corrected.

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Nov 11, 2021 - 19:18

Bellenrode wrote:

MattDakka wrote:

But, as passing is not a plan A (Wildly Inaccurate has been added), it's not a great difference. They are better but not that better.

Passing may not be a plan A, but there is a difference between someone who can pull off a pass and someone who can't. After all, 2+ into 2+ is not that hard (or even 3+ into 2+). Especially with multiple re-rolls possible.

Yes, but, if we consider only the "throwing the ball" part (without considering the catch at the end of the pass) an Orc lineman is as good as throwing the ball as a DE Blitzer.
For you is not weird, I understand that, for me it makes no sense. BB is not WHFB but they are a sort of parallel universes.

Bellenrode wrote:

Did they though? To my knowledge Pass is still useful for saving re-rolls. Just because you can burn a bunch of re-rolls in a single turn now, it doesn't mean you should.

I'm not a theoric guy, I played several games with Orcs with new rules and using either an Orc Blitzer or a Goblin made me save more rrs than a slow Orc Thrower, because I had to GFI less often (not to mention taking more time to get the ball and start the offence).
Therefore, if I save rrs (which are a versatile resource) generally I don't lack them for the last turn, where I have to score either by running the ball + hand off or passing it. Moreover, MA 6 can reduce the range of a pass/hand off/rush to End Zone.

Bellenrode wrote:

Also, you keep saying the Goblin is better when it comes to throwing a Long Bomb, while at the same time ommitting that Orc Thrower has Sure Hands, Pass, his movement is equal to Linemen and Big Uns and he succeeds with passes on 3+.

When it comes to throwing the ball Sure Hands is a no-factor, while MA 5 is a factor since my offensive drive starts till the end (no matter if I pass, hand off, or run to the End Zone carrying the ball).
I consider the typical Orc scenario:
- plan A is running with the ball;
- so, a faster player is better than a slower player;
- that means that either a Goblin or Blitzer is better for this plan A because they are the fastest players and because the running scenario will be the most common, therefore it's better to focus on it. Currently I'm using a Blodger Orc Blitzer with Sure Hands, because the Goblin is too easily tackled and he lacks G access. I tried the Orc Thrower (even with Cannoneer he was disappointing), then switched to the Goblin (taking random skill and cycling him if not Block/Sure Hands), then to the Blitzer (who proved to be the best ball carrier). So, I actually tested all the possible ball carriers before having an opinion.

Bellenrode wrote:

I mean, maybe a Goblin IS better when it come to Long Bomb, but this argument is so selective and the scenario itself so unrealistic (how often will you be giving the ball to a Goblin AND throwing a Long Bomb at the same time?) that it can't be taken seriously.

Well, I found myself quite often requiring to pass the ball in my Orc games. Not a plan A with 8-turn drive, but not a rare scenario with 2-turn drive.

Bellenrode wrote:

I don't really see the point of bringing up WHFB while at the same time contesting the official changes to Blood Bowl. WHFB is WHFB, Blood Bowl is Blood Bowl.

I see, well, WHFB and BB are 2 parallel universes, there are too many common things to dismiss them like totally different. Anyway, it doesn't seem normal in any fantasy setting you can imagine that a Goblin or Orc is better at throwing than an Elf.

Bellenrode wrote:

It looks self-evident to you, because you got used to the old rules, in which all Elves were equally good at passing (thanks to their AG4). That's basically all there is to it.

I understand your view. Well, maybe I'm biased due to many years of reading WH fluff.

Last edited by MattDakka on %b %12, %2021 - %13:%Nov; edited 1 time in total

Bellenrode

Joined: May 02, 2021

Posted: Nov 11, 2021 - 20:01

MattDakka wrote:

Yes, but, if we consider only the "throwing the ball" part (without considering the catch at the end of the pass) an Orc lineman is as good as throwing the ball as a DE Blitzer.

Once more you're being weirdly selective. "Orc Lineman is as good as throwing the ball as DE Blitzer, except for the catching part" doesn't really make much sense when you want the catching part to work.

MattDakka wrote:

When it comes to throwing the ball Sure Hands is a no-factor [...]

Sure. But it certainly becomes a factor, because someone has to pick up the ball before throwing it.

MattDakka wrote:

MA 5 is a factor since my offensive drive starts till the end (no matter if I pass, hand off, or run to the End Zone carrying the ball).
I consider the typical Orc scenario:
- plan A is running with the ball;
- so, a faster player is better than a slower player;
- that means that either a Goblin or Blitzer is better for this plan A because they are the fastest players and because the running scenario will be the most common, therefore it's better to focus on it.

Faster player is generally better, but the pace of the cage is also an important factor. How often you end up outrunning your cage? Or are we talking about a mad dash to the endzone, because you have 2-3 turns left?

MattDakka wrote:

Well, I found myself quite often requiring to pass the ball in my Orc games. Not a plan A with 8-turn drive, but not a rare scenario with 2-turn drive.

I get people who use Blitzers as their ball-carriers or last-ditch throwers, but it still doesn't explain the argument with a Goblin. Especially in the context of picking up and throwing the ball.

MattDakka wrote:

I understand you view. Well, maybe I'm biased due to many years of reading WH fluff.

You should be happy with the changes then, as a lot of teams got more in-line with their fluff.