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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 11, 2021 - 20:37 Reply with quote Back to top

Bellenrode wrote:

Once more you're being weirdly selective. "Orc Lineman is as good as throwing the ball as DE Blitzer, except for the catching part" doesn't really make much sense when you want the catching part to work.

It makes a difference when you want to punt or at least get the ball away. Sometimes a failed pass is ok if the ball goes far enough from the throwing player. It's not that uncommon for Elves to sack a ball carrier, then the ball is on the pitch and they just want to throw it away. Actual gameplay experience, not theorycrafting.
Bellenrode wrote:

Sure. But it certainly becomes a factor, because someone has to pick up the ball before throwing it.

Yes, but if you have 8 turns to score generally it's not an issue. You have to pick the ball once-twice a game, while you move almost every turn with your ball carrier.

Bellenrode wrote:

Faster player is generally better, but the pace of the cage is also an important factor. How often you end up outrunning your cage? Or are we talking about a mad dash to the endzone, because you have 2-3 turns left?

There is no need to outrun the cage. With MA 6 you can safely stall 6 squares away from the End Zone, while with a MA 5 Orc Thrower you will have to risk at least a 2+ to score from the same position. Since passing is riskier than running then a faster player is better for that. Scoring could be a matter of rolling just 2 GFIs or no GFI at all, with MA 6.

Bellenrode wrote:

I get people who use Blitzers as their ball-carriers or last-ditch throwers, but it still doesn't explain the argument with a Goblin. Especially in the context of picking up and throwing the ball.

I don't use a Goblin anymore, but, if I had to choose another ball carrier, I would use a Goblin. For the pick up (which happens 1-2 times most of games) I can use a rr if I really need to pick the ball up in that turn, while with MA 5 it's harder to GFI. Passing with the Goblin is clearly not a plan A, but, if really needed, a Goblin is not that bad. With MA 6 he can gets closer to the receiver, he doesn't roll the Animosity, these are 2 positive sides, in case he should pass the ball.
The ball carried by the Goblin can travel up to 8 squares with two GFIs, then a 3+ hand off, no Animosity test. Compare that to a Thrower's 2+ Animosity test, 3+ pass (which could be Inaccurate or Fumble), 3+ catch: the Goblin is better, if you have at least a rr.

Bellenrode wrote:

You should be happy with the changes then, as a lot of teams got more in-line with their fluff.

Not a lot, because, apart from the Kick-Off table changes and clawmb nerf the rest of the ruleset sucks.
The passing system is really bad.
Bellenrode



Joined: May 02, 2021

Post   Posted: Nov 12, 2021 - 05:24 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
It's not that uncommon for Elves to sack a ball carrier, then the ball is on the pitch and they just want to throw it away. Actual gameplay experience, not theorycrafting.

Actually, this is uncommon for Elves in my actual gameplay experience.

In pre BB2020 you would simply pass the ball to someone (as an Elf). In post BB2020 you dodge away and/or make sure the ball is shielded from an easy pick up, especially if you think that punting the ball is going to make situation even worse than just holding on to it.

MattDakka wrote:
Yes, but if you have 8 turns to score generally it's not an issue. You have to pick the ball once-twice a game, while you move almost every turn with your ball carrier.

While ideally you want ball-carrier protected at all times, against any competent coach you will see the ball dropped more often than once-twice a game. And this comes from my actual gameplay experience (as well as from watching other coaches play), mind you, not theorycrafting.

MattDakka wrote:
There is no need to outrun the cage. With MA 6 you can safely stall 6 squares away from the End Zone, while with a MA 5 Orc Thrower you will have to risk at least a 2+ to score from the same position. Since passing is riskier than running then a faster player is better for that. Scoring could be a matter of rolling just 2 GFIs or no GFI at all, with MA 6.

I see two problems with that:

1) By standing in exactly the spot you need to score, you invite the stalling penalty anyway.

2) By standing one square beyond the exact spot you need to score you risk 2+ anyway. It gets even worse when enemy can mess up the situation on the pitch for you.

MattDakka wrote:
I don't use a Goblin anymore, but, if I had to choose another ball carrier, I would use a Goblin. For the pick up (which happens 1-2 times most of games) I can use a rr if I really need to pick the ball up in that turn, while with MA 5 it's harder to GFI.

GFI is 2+. Picking the ball up is 3+. Yet you claim 2+ action is harder (and less frequent) than 3+ action?

MattDakka wrote:
Passing with the Goblin is clearly not a plan A, but, if really needed, a Goblin is not that bad. With MA 6 he can gets closer to the receiver, he doesn't roll the Animosity, these are 2 positive sides, in case he should pass the ball.

The ball carried by the Goblin can travel up to 8 squares with two GFIs, then a 3+ hand off, no Animosity test. Compare that to a Thrower's 2+ Animosity test, 3+ pass (which could be Inaccurate or Fumble), 3+ catch: the Goblin is better, if you have at least a rr.

Actually, the Goblin is much worse when it comes to passing.

Handing off:

Thrower: 3+ pick up (Sure Hands) -> 2+ -> 2+ (two GFIs) -> 2+ (Animosity) -> 3+ catch = 35% success chance, ~63% with a team re-roll.

Goblin: 3+ pick up -> 2+ -> 2+ (two GFIs) -> 3+ catch = ~31%% success chance, ~62% with a team re-roll.

Passing:

Thrower: 3+ pick up (Sure Hands) -> 2+ -> 2+ (two GFIs) -> 2+ (Animosity) -> 3+ pass (Pass) -> 3+ catch = 30% success chance, ~56% with a team re-roll.

Goblin: 3+ pick up -> 2+ -> 2+ two GFIs -> 4+ pass -> 3+ catch = 15% success chance, ~39% with a team re-roll.

MattDakka wrote:
Not a lot, because, apart from the Kick-Off table changes and clawmb nerf the rest of the ruleset sucks. The passing system is really bad.

Well, I was talking about the fluff perspective. Were you?
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 12, 2021 - 06:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Bellenrode wrote:

Handing off:

Thrower: 3+ pick up (Sure Hands) -> 2+ -> 2+ (two GFIs) -> 2+ (Animosity) -> 3+ catch = 35% success chance, ~63% with a team re-roll.

Goblin: 3+ pick up -> 2+ -> 2+ (two GFIs) -> 3+ catch = ~31%% success chance, ~62% with a team re-roll.

Interesting numbers but the Goblin has +1 MV over the Quarterback. A single GFI is 37% (68% TRR). A 5% improvement over the Orc.

Bellenrode wrote:

Passing:
Thrower: 3+ pick up (Sure Hands) -> 2+ -> 2+ (two GFIs) -> 2+ (Animosity) -> 3+ pass (Pass) -> 3+ catch = 30% success chance, ~56% with a team re-roll.

Goblin: 3+ pick up -> 2+ -> 2+ two GFIs -> 4+ pass -> 3+ catch = 15% success chance, ~39% with a team re-roll.

Dropping a rush gives us 19% / 43% TRR. Still worse but not quite as bad.

Bellenrode wrote:

1) By standing in exactly the spot you need to score, you invite the stalling penalty anyway.

It is not too hard to stand 7 (or x+1 where x is your MV) and then move into range on Turn 7 to avoid any stalling penalty. Given it is one result on Prayers I really doubt stalling will do anything.

_________________
Nuffle wills it.

Lyracian.
maznaz



Joined: Jan 26, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 12, 2021 - 10:45 Reply with quote Back to top

JanMattys wrote:
Hyperbole won't make you right maznaz. While I agree with you, ag4 is great at catching and no orc has that.
Pass 3+ then catch 2+ and another potential handoff 2+ is way batter than any orc team can do.


A failed throw and a failed catch don't have anywhere near the same impact on your strategy. It's nowhere near hyperbole to say the usefulness of a pass from a defensive position is way worse now than it was previously.
maznaz



Joined: Jan 26, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 12, 2021 - 10:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Bellenrode wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
The fact is: if you want to run the ball with Orcs, either a Blitzer or Goblin is better because both are faster than the Orc Thrower.
Orcs would be better off with a pure Runner, rather than a slow Thrower (who is not even in-line with their fluff). The Orc Thrower looks like a legacy positional from 2nd edition BB, where Orcs had Throwers and Catchers.

Yes, that's exactly what I am talking about: Orcs are extra discouraged to pass the ball now. Not only you have to pick up the ball - you also have to pass an additional check just to be able to pass it (nevermind catching it).

maznaz wrote:
Making dark elves as good with the ball as orcs is not putting them in line with any fluff.

1) They are better with the ball than the Orcs are. At least when it comes to picking it up and catching it.

2)
Quote:
Evil beyond belief, skilled without doubt, the Dark Elves take to the pitch to show the world their superiority. Dark Elf teams prefer a malevolent and spiteful running game over the passing of their goodly cousins. Backed up by the ruthless Witch Elves and dangerous assassins, a Dark Elf team has all the tools to power through rather than around any opposition line.


maznaz wrote:
Removing an entire aspect of their strategic options is not providing more gameplay variety. Not even really sure how you came to either of those conclusions.

That's because you don't understand how limiting Dark Elves' access to passing forces their coaches to play around that particular weakness. If you want a true passing team, then you have to look elsewhere, as hinted in the Dark Elves' description.

I guess it's easier for me to understand and accept, since I don't have any bias when judging any particular team, while you "had literally hunderds of games of them", "loved their versatility" and "hate dark elves now".


So you admit their versatility was removed. So if you had any ability to empathise you'd understand why some people who enjoyed them previously now don't. The rest of your waffle adds nothing.

Also, look up the word "prefer" in a dictionary or something, jesus.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 12, 2021 - 12:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Bellenrode wrote:
Actually, this is uncommon for Elves in my actual gameplay experience.

In pre BB2020 you would simply pass the ball to someone (as an Elf). In post BB2020 you dodge away and/or make sure the ball is shielded from an easy pick up, especially if you think that punting the ball is going to make situation even worse than just holding on to it.

Not uncommon in my experience. If I can protect the ball I will not punt it, of course, but if after sacking the ball and picking it up the Elf could be blitzed/blocked then I try to punt it. Feel free not to trust me, but in my games it happened several times.

Bellenrode wrote:

While ideally you want ball-carrier protected at all times, against any competent coach you will see the ball dropped more often than once-twice a game. And this comes from my actual gameplay experience (as well as from watching other coaches play), mind you, not theorycrafting.

Yes, I was talking about picking the ball after the opponent has kicked it off to me, not about picking up a dropped ball during a drive. We could argue that a MA 6 player can more easily reach the ball than a MA 5 player when it is dropped on the pitch.

Bellenrode wrote:

1) By standing in exactly the spot you need to score, you invite the stalling penalty anyway.

The stalling penalty happens only if a specific Prayer to Nuffle is rolled, not in every game. In most of games it doesn't happen.

Bellenrode wrote:

2) By standing one square beyond the exact spot you need to score you risk 2+ anyway. It gets even worse when enemy can mess up the situation on the pitch for you.

Well, better to risk a 2+ to score with MA 6 than two 2+ with MA 5. Also, I made an example, you don't need to stall 6 squares away every game. The point is you can run the ball more safely if you have to risk fewer GFIs.

Bellenrode wrote:

GFI is 2+. Picking the ball up is 3+. Yet you claim 2+ action is harder (and less frequent) than 3+ action?

Yes, because 1-2 pick ups in a game are not as potentially risky as making 1-2 GFIs during the offensive drive. While you can generally afford to fail a pick up (unless pressured by opponent players, for example during a Blitz!) failing a GFI to score or to advance can be really a mess. With MA 5 it's hard not to risk at least 1 GFI during the advance. 2+ GFI is more likely but failing it is potentially worse than failing a pick up (assuming you can protect the ball). With MA 6 once the ball is picked up I will have to risk fewer GFIs to score. I don't need to rr the first failed pick up, unless I really need it. In that case I just use a team rr.

Bellenrode wrote:

Actually, the Goblin is much worse when it comes to passing.

Handing off:

Thrower: 3+ pick up (Sure Hands) -> 2+ -> 2+ (two GFIs) -> 2+ (Animosity) -> 3+ catch = 35% success chance, ~63% with a team re-roll.

Goblin: 3+ pick up -> 2+ -> 2+ (two GFIs) -> 3+ catch = ~31%% success chance, ~62% with a team re-roll.

Passing:

Thrower: 3+ pick up (Sure Hands) -> 2+ -> 2+ (two GFIs) -> 2+ (Animosity) -> 3+ pass (Pass) -> 3+ catch = 30% success chance, ~56% with a team re-roll.

Goblin: 3+ pick up -> 2+ -> 2+ two GFIs -> 4+ pass -> 3+ catch = 15% success chance, ~39% with a team re-roll.

I assumed the Goblin already had the ball. I never mentioned picking up the ball and passing it in the same turn. Also, in my example the Goblin handed off the ball, he didn't pass it. With MA 6 + 2 GFIs + hand off to a MA 6 Blitzer the ball moves 14 squares, enough to score from the half of the pitch.

Bellenrode wrote:

Well, I was talking about the fluff perspective. Were you?

Ah sorry, then I'll do a list about that:
Ogres have ST 1 Gnoblars, and Ogres are all the same but the Runt Punter;
Orcs have Throwers;
Humans still are not as versatile as they should be;
Chaos has no random mutations;
Chaos Renegades have no random mutations;
HE Thrower can throw a Wildly Inaccurate Pass but never an Inaccurate: it should be the other way around;
Vampires are terrible (they should start with Pro, at least);
Khorngors have Passing as secondary skill access (Khorne should never ever bother with passing, even with secondary skills);
Goblins still don't have rostered bribes, they are supposed to foul and cheat a lot;
Halflings still don't have a rostered Master Chef, according to the fluff they play BB for the post-match big feast.
stowelly



Joined: Mar 16, 2017

Post   Posted: Nov 12, 2021 - 17:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Hello
Rbthma



Joined: Jan 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 12, 2021 - 17:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Hello!
pedro_fgomes



Joined: Mar 25, 2018

Post   Posted: Nov 12, 2021 - 17:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Hello

_________________
Image[/url]
Bellenrode



Joined: May 02, 2021

Post   Posted: Nov 12, 2021 - 19:33 Reply with quote Back to top

@Lyracian

You make good points.

maznaz wrote:
So you admit their versatility was removed.

I said the gameplay variety was added by differentiating the teams more by making Dark Elves play differently than their other Elven cousins.

maznaz wrote:
So if you had any ability to empathise you'd understand why some people who enjoyed them previously now don't.

I understand that. However, it doesn't really change anything.

maznaz wrote:
The rest of your waffle adds nothing.

Quite to the contrary - it proves my point about the fluff. But I guess when you can't openly confront it, you have to resort to saying it adds nothing.

Ironically enough it's your "waffle" that adds no substance to your position, because it either misses the point entirely or is plain personal attack (since you can't make any meritorical argument).

maznaz wrote:
Also, look up the word "prefer" in a dictionary or something, jesus.

You should look up the word "variety". Or learn to understand what you're reading in general.

MattDakka wrote:
Not uncommon in my experience. If I can protect the ball I will not punt it, of course, but if after sacking the ball and picking it up the Elf could be blitzed/blocked then I try to punt it. Feel free not to trust me, but in my games it happened several times.

It's not that I don't believe it didn't happen. The question lies in the frequency.

MattDakka wrote:
Yes, I was talking about picking the ball after the opponent has kicked it off to me, not about picking up a dropped ball during a drive. We could argue that a MA 6 player can more easily reach the ball than a MA 5 player when it is dropped on the pitch.

MA 6 is obviously better than MA 5. My point is that it isn't down to MA alone, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation.

MattDakka wrote:
Well, better to risk a 2+ to score with MA 6 than two 2+ with MA 5. Also, I made an example, you don't need to stall 6 squares away every game. The point is you can run the ball more safely if you have to risk fewer GFIs.

1) Why you have to risk two 2+? Both players have to stand one square outside of their movement range.

2) I concede the point about stalling.

3) I agree fewer GFIs is better. That's why Orc players use Blitzers as their ball-carriers. Well, that and their higher armor value. And Block.

MattDakka wrote:
Yes, because 1-2 pick ups in a game are not as potentially risky as making 1-2 GFIs during the offensive drive. While you can generally afford to fail a pick up (unless pressured by opponent players, for example during a Blitz!) failing a GFI to score or to advance can be really a mess. With MA 5 it's hard not to risk at least 1 GFI during the advance. 2+ GFI is more likely but failing it is potentially worse than failing a pick up (assuming you can protect the ball). With MA 6 once the ball is picked up I will have to risk fewer GFIs to score. I don't need to rr the first failed pick up, unless I really need it. In that case I just use a team rr.

I have to say you play differently from me. When I play I tend to avoid GFIs, unless I find them to be absolutely vital.

MattDakka wrote:
I assumed the Goblin already had the ball. I never mentioned picking up the ball and passing it in the same turn.

True, but considering you need to pick up the ball in order to be able to pass or carry it, I decided to include it in the equation. Maybe I shouldn't have, but then again there are situation where you pick up and pass right away, so...

MattDakka wrote:
Also, in my example the Goblin handed off the ball, he didn't pass it.

I provided two examples: in one the ball is handed off. In another the ball is passed.

MattDakka wrote:
Ah sorry, then I'll do a list about that:

That's a very interesting list. Thank you.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 12, 2021 - 20:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Bellenrode wrote:

It's not that I don't believe it didn't happen. The question lies in the frequency.

Even if punts don't happen every game, still it's nice to have that option. Also, if we judge how good a player is at passing, we should consider his sheer PA, without taking into account the receiver at the end of the pass. How good a player is at passing is a thing, how good the passing game of a certain team is another thing. Of course AG 4 receivers are better than AG 3, but still this doesn't change that the PA of an Elf Blitzer is the same as an Orc Blitzer. Even just considering only the BB fluff and not WH, it is really weird that an Orc Blitzer, a race clearly not interested in the passing game, is as good as an Elf Blitzer, a race with more finesse.

Bellenrode wrote:

MA 6 is obviously better than MA 5. My point is that it isn't down to MA alone, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Sure, but I pointed out that, for a running game (which is the plan A for most teams, even the Elven ones) higher MA is more important.

Bellenrode wrote:

1) Why you have to risk two 2+? Both players have to stand one square outside of their movement range.

If they have the choice, yes, but, if the turns are running out (or the defence was good) MA 6 helps to score from a longer distance (with fewer GFIs).

Bellenrode wrote:

3) I agree fewer GFIs is better. That's why Orc players use Blitzers as their ball-carriers. Well, that and their higher armor value. And Block.

Yes, and with access to Stand Firm/Guard/Break Tackle too (or, by taking a secondary/stat boost, more easily Blodged or with MA 7).
This is my Orc Blitzer from BB2016 (top 1 Orc player in the Box division): https://fumbbl.com/p/player?op=view&player_id=12088949
Bellenrode wrote:

I have to say you play differently from me. When I play I tend to avoid GFIs, unless I find them to be absolutely vital.

It's exacly how I play too. Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting to GFI every turn full steam ahead for no reason. My point is: if I have to score in a hurry/I have to change my path to go past the defence it's better to have higher MA (because it reduces or makes unnecessary the GFIs). I want to avoid GFIs, this is why I use the fastest player as ball carrier.

Bellenrode wrote:

True, but considering you need to pick up the ball in order to be able to pass or carry it, I decided to include it in the equation. Maybe I shouldn't have, but then again there are situation where you pick up and pass right away, so...

Fair enough. Anyway, with Goblin's MA 6 + 1 GFI + Hand Off the ball can travel 13 squares (i.e. the full Long Bomb range) without any Animosity/Wildly Inaccurate/Inaccurate risk, 83.33 % with a team rr. The chance to do the same thing with an Orc Thrower's Long Bomb and a rr is 25.46%.

Bellenrode wrote:

I provided two examples: in one the ball is handed off. In another the ball is passed.

I see. My example was a comparison between a Goblin's Hand Off with 2 GFIs and a team rr, 77.16 % and an Orc Thrower's Quick Pass (without GFIs) and a team rr, 74.07.%

Bellenrode wrote:

That's a very interesting list. Thank you.

Cheers, thanks for the civil debate too.
Bellenrode



Joined: May 02, 2021

Post   Posted: Nov 13, 2021 - 06:02 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Even if punts don't happen every game, still it's nice to have that option.

I don't disagree with that, but punting is a pass action. And I doubt anyone would take a skill just for successful punting (I refer to fumblerooski-like situation here).

MattDakka wrote:
Also, if we judge how good a player is at passing, we should consider his sheer PA, without taking into account the receiver at the end of the pass. How good a player is at passing is a thing, how good the passing game of a certain team is another thing.

I disagree. Outside of punting there is point in not considering who's on the receiving end of the pass. Some teams have access to better passing and receiving, some don't, but in general you want to pass to someone. Punting doesn't invalidate that, being an exception that confirms the rule.

MattDakka wrote:
Of course AG 4 receivers are better than AG 3, but still this doesn't change that the PA of an Elf Blitzer is the same as an Orc Blitzer. Even just considering only the BB fluff and not WH, it is really weird that an Orc Blitzer, a race clearly not interested in the passing game, is as good as an Elf Blitzer, a race with more finesse.

This is a complicated matter.

1) PA 4+ is second worst passing stat, only PA 5+ is worse and in case of Orc team it's reserved for Untrained Troll, so looking at it from that perspective it makes sense for Orc Blitzer to have PA 4+. Note this is true for most teams.

Also, Animosity gives that extra layer of passing difficulty, on top of Orc Blitzer having "only" PA 4+, so the Orcs have more going against them that just their PA stat.

2) Take a look at other Elf teams: only Elven Union has PA 3+ players outside of their throwers. Why? Most likely because 3+ with a re-roll means ~89% chance of success, which would lessen the importance of having a dedicated thrower on your team. That's why Elves as a whole are no longer masters of the passing game. Instead they have access to dedicated throwers and the capability to receive with anyone.

It also means the Thrower has to be protected, because you can't use just anyone to pass with the same degree of efficacy, which gives bashing teams a better idea where to aim to hurt Elves the most if they wish to play the passing game. Unless they decide to dodge and hand off, which they can still do well.

MattDakka wrote:
Sure, but I pointed out that, for a running game (which is the plan A for most teams, even the Elven ones) higher MA is more important.

I am not denying this particular point. I am simply not keen on looking at the gameplay elements in isolation, because they are all linked together and can impact the overall outcome.

MattDakka wrote:
If they have the choice, yes, but, if the turns are running out (or the defence was good) MA 6 helps to score from a longer distance (with fewer GFIs).

True.

MattDakka wrote:
It's exacly how I play too. Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting to GFI every turn full steam ahead for no reason. My point is: if I have to score in a hurry/I have to change my path to go past the defence it's better to have higher MA (because it reduces or makes unnecessary the GFIs). I want to avoid GFIs, this is why I use the fastest player as ball carrier.

I think we are in agreement here.

MattDakka wrote:
Fair enough. Anyway, with Goblin's MA 6 + 1 GFI + Hand Off the ball can travel 13 squares (i.e. the full Long Bomb range) without any Animosity/Wildly Inaccurate/Inaccurate risk, 83.33 % with a team rr. The chance to do the same thing with an Orc Thrower's Long Bomb and a rr is 25.46%.

I agree that Hand off with the Goblin has better chances, but why do the Long Bomb?

Since the Goblin can do a Hand Off after moving 7 squares, surely you can move 5 squares with the Thrower, Pass the ball 2 squares and then run the ball in?

2+ (Animosity) -> 3+ Pass (with Pass) -> 3+ Catch = ~49% success chance without a re-roll. ~74% with a re-roll.

Also, I still think that not taking picking up the ball into account doesn't give the full picture. Yes, you could have the ball from before, but this detail really shakes up the whole math (the Goblin's chances go down to ~56%, while the Throwers are at ~66%).

MattDakka wrote:
Cheers, thanks for the civil debate too.

Likewise.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 13, 2021 - 12:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Bellenrode wrote:

I don't disagree with that, but punting is a pass action. And I doubt anyone would take a skill just for successful punting (I refer to fumblerooski-like situation here).

Punting doesn't require to take Fumblerooski. When you punt you just want to throw the ball away from the opponents. For example, after a sack or, if receiving and stalling (because unable to score due to being outnumbered), when the opponent's pressure is too high, the half is almost over and you have no receiver to pass to then a punt could be enough to protect the 1-0 or tie.

Bellenrode wrote:

I disagree. Outside of punting there is point in not considering who's on the receiving end of the pass. Some teams have access to better passing and receiving, some don't, but in general you want to pass to someone. Punting doesn't invalidate that, being an exception that confirms the rule.

Most of times you pass to somebody, true, but punt is not that uncommon, if you are playing as (or vs) Elves or any team with decent throwers.
If we consider the overall passing game of a team yes, it's important to consider the whole picture and the AG of the receivers, but if we consider the single player it makes no sense that an Orc or Goblin has the same PA as an Elf. This is what I find weird and inconsistent.

Bellenrode wrote:

This is a complicated matter.

1) PA 4+ is second worst passing stat, only PA 5+ is worse and in case of Orc team it's reserved for Untrained Troll, so looking at it from that perspective it makes sense for Orc Blitzer to have PA 4+. Note this is true for most teams.

PA 6+ is the worst passing stat (unless we consider PA - as the worst one overall). 4+ is the third worst passing stat.
Designers could have just used a D8 (or another dice).
With more sides there could have been more granularity and players could have been better differentiated. Pass skill could have changed Wildly Inaccurate to either 1D6 from the target square (instead of current 1D6 from the thrower's square) or 1D3 from thrower's square, Safe Pass could have turned Inaccurate into Fumble and Wildly Inaccurate into Inaccurate (instead of just cancelling a Fumble).

Bellenrode wrote:

Also, Animosity gives that extra layer of passing difficulty, on top of Orc Blitzer having "only" PA 4+, so the Orcs have more going against them that just their PA stat.

True, but only if they are interested in passing to another Orc, not if they are punting. Also, it creates paradoxes, such as a Goblin passing a Long Bomb to another Orc better than a specialist Orc Thrower if he can use a rr. A Goblin should be awful at passing the ball, even by using a rr.

Bellenrode wrote:

2) Take a look at other Elf teams: only Elven Union has PA 3+ players outside of their throwers. Why? Most likely because 3+ with a re-roll means ~89% chance of success, which would lessen the importance of having a dedicated thrower on your team. That's why Elves as a whole are no longer masters of the passing game. Instead they have access to dedicated throwers and the capability to receive with anyone.

Sorry, I genuinely don't understand this point. Elven Union PA 3+ lessens the importance of having a Thrower, yet they have dedicated Throwers?


Bellenrode wrote:

It also means the Thrower has to be protected, because you can't use just anyone to pass with the same degree of efficacy, which gives bashing teams a better idea where to aim to hurt Elves the most if they wish to play the passing game.

It means that, rather than passing, running the ball + hand off remains the plan A like in the former ruleset. So, I understand that designers wanted to make passing an action requiring specialist Throwers (a thing I find positive), but the effect was encouraging the running game once again. The Passing skills are too fragmented and having a really reliable Thrower (unless he starts with default PA 2+) requires more skills than before, so personally I don't bother with Throwers unless they have default PA 2+ (and 3+ in DE case). If Passing skills were fewer (for example Accurate and Cannoneer merged into a single skill) or you could get 2 random P skills at the price of 1 random P skill then I could try to develop a Thrower.

Bellenrode wrote:

Since the Goblin can do a Hand Off after moving 7 squares, surely you can move 5 squares with the Thrower, Pass the ball 2 squares and then run the ball in?

2+ (Animosity) -> 3+ Pass (with Pass) -> 3+ Catch = ~49% success chance without a re-roll. ~74% with a re-roll.

Goblin: 2+ GFI + 3+ Hand Off = 83.33% with a reroll
Orc Thrower: 2+ Animosity, 3+ Pass, 3+ Catch with a reroll = 74.07%
The Goblin is still better than the Thrower (and he's cheaper too).

Bellenrode wrote:

Also, I still think that not taking picking up the ball into account doesn't give the full picture. Yes, you could have the ball from before, but this detail really shakes up the whole math (the Goblin's chances go down to ~56%, while the Throwers are at ~66%).

My example is supposed to be a last turn attempt to score from half of the pitch (quite realistic scenario).

In your example, adding the pick up:
Goblin: 3+ Pick Up, GFI 2+, Hand Off 3+
without team reroll
37.03%
with a team reroll
67.9 %

Orc Thrower: 3+ Pick Up, Animosity 2+, 3+ Pass, 3+ Catch
without team reroll
43.89%
with a team reroll
65.84%

The Orc Thrower is better if you don't have a team rr but worse if you have a team rr.
Since the % difference is marginal but higher MA is better the Goblin (or Orc Blitzer) is generally better.


Last edited by MattDakka on Nov 13, 2021 - 13:47; edited 10 times in total
MerryZ



Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 13, 2021 - 12:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Too much information ! Too much logical/illogical.

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Bellenrode



Joined: May 02, 2021

Post   Posted: Nov 13, 2021 - 18:35 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Punting doesn't require to take Fumblerooski.

I know, I was using Fumblerooski as an example of a skill that allows you to do an unorthodox move.

I will clarify: would you (or anyone) take a skill to be able to punt the ball without having to go through a skill check (PA, in this case)?

I know punting can be useful, but I doubt it is THAT useful.

MattDakka wrote:
If we consider the overall passing game of a team yes, it's important to consider the whole picture and the AG of the receivers, but if we consider the single player it makes no sense that an Orc or Goblin has the same PA as an Elf. This is what I find weird and inconsistent.

As you say later on; the spread of points is too tight to squeeze a more fine distinction between other teams/races. Who knows, maybe we will see some fine-tuning in the future?

MattDakka wrote:
PA 6+ is the worst passing stat (unless we consider PA - as the worst one overall). 4+ is the third worst passing stat.

Mea culpa. I tend to not think about 6+, because this requires a critical success (as in "you succeed no matter what). But it's good of you to mention PA -, because with PA - even 6+ won't help.

MattDakka wrote:
Designers could have just used a D8 (or another dice). With more sides there could have been more granularity and players could have been better differentiated. Pass skill could have changed Wildly Inaccurate to either 1D6 from the target square (instead of current 1D6 from the thrower's square) or 1D3 from thrower's square, Safe Pass could have turned Inaccurate into Fumble and Wildly Inaccurate into Inaccurate (instead of just cancelling a Fumble).

True. My guess is they didn't want to change too much in order to not make the changes too radical for the players.

MattDakka wrote:
True, but only if they are interested in passing to another Orc, not if they are punting. Also, it creates paradoxes, such as a Goblin passing a Long Bomb to another Orc better than a specialist Orc Thrower if he can use a rr. A Goblin should be awful at passing the ball, even by using a rr.

True.

MattDakka wrote:
Sorry, I genuinely don't understand this point. Elven Union PA 3+ lessens the importance of having a Thrower, yet they have dedicated Throwers?

My point was that the Elven Union becomes a superior passing team, because they get two PA 3+ Blitzers on top of having two Throwers (PA 2+). There is no other team like them.

MattDakka wrote:
It means that, rather than passing, running the ball + hand off remains the plan A like in the former ruleset. So, I understand that designers wanted to make passing an action requiring specialist Throwers (a thing I find positive), but the effect was encouraging the running game once again. The Passing skills are too fragmented and having a really reliable Thrower (unless he starts with default PA 2+) requires more skills than before, so personally I don't bother with Throwers unless they have default PA 2+ (and 3+ in DE case). If Passing skills were fewer (for example Accurate and Cannoneer merged into a single skill) or you could get 2 random P skills at the price of 1 random P skill then I could try to develop a Thrower.

For some teams passing got better (Human Thrower and Underworld Skaven Thrower both have PA +2). It's the Elves who got the shorter end of the stick.

MattDakka wrote:
Goblin: 2+ GFI + 3+ Hand Off = 83.33% with a reroll

Orc Thrower: 2+ Animosity, 3+ Pass, 3+ Catch with a reroll = 74.07%

The Goblin is still better than the Thrower (and he's cheaper too).

I don't disagree. I was just pointing out that throwing the Long Bomb was a sub-optimal play in that scenario.

MattDakka wrote:
The Orc Thrower is better if you don't have a team rr but worse if you have a team rr. Since the % difference is marginal but higher MA is better the Goblin (or Orc Blitzer) is generally better.

I have to admit I put extra value on saving team re-rolls. Or at least I used to, before the Animosity hit him.
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