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Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2021 - 20:58 Reply with quote Back to top

CDs have seen a few quite substantial changes in the new rules:

* Claw and MB no longer stack
* Bull dodge with BT is now a 3+
* Mino now has AS instead of WA

So where do we stand? What is the thinking? Are CDs still as strong as they used to be? Will we see them winning Majors in the new meta? Is the Mino now viable, or even mandatory? How do we develop our Bull Centaurs now that BT is no longer a no brainer? Is Claw still worth it? Are random skills on Hobgoblins a thing? When building a fouler do we take DP first or SG first?

What about stat increases? I'm in the "carry with a Hobbo" camp and I'm thinking to take one on my ball carrier early on, +MA and +AG would both be good and if I don't get either, I can take the Double for Dodge.
C0ddlefish



Joined: Sep 17, 2019

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2021 - 21:28 Reply with quote Back to top

I'd argue Chorfs have been hit less than almost anyone else, and look perfect for this ruleset.

Hobbos are perfect candidates for random and recycle as you should be rolling in spare cash. Might want to grab a chosen DP to compliment the Guard Spam.

Edit: I believe NAF stats have them as the 4th best team this year which is no surprise.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2021 - 21:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Verminardo wrote:

Are CDs still as strong as they used to be?

No.

Verminardo wrote:

Will we see them winning Majors in the new meta?

Hard to say, they are not a weak team, but weaker than in the former ruleset for sure.

Verminardo wrote:

Is the Mino now viable, or even mandatory?

No and not mandatory at all.

Verminardo wrote:
How do we develop our Bull Centaurs now that BT is no longer a no brainer?

Block, Guard, Mb, Tackle, Break Tackle, Stand Firm.
Frenzy could be nice too. Realistically speaking, 3 skill-build, so Block, Guard and either Mb/Tackle.
Guard is a must-to-have because Claw is harder to get, that means fewer removals and longer block battles in order to advance, hence Guard.

Verminardo wrote:

Is Claw still worth it?

It's harder to obtain and less effective, so I think not. There could be exceptions (for example, a CD getting lucky MVPs and having enough SPPs to pick Claw fast) but I think it's better to get Guard and Mb first, as cost/effect value.

Verminardo wrote:

Are random skills on Hobgoblins a thing?

Yes, but take them only if you can cycle the Hobgoblin in case a bad random skill is rolled.

Verminardo wrote:

When building a fouler do we take DP first or SG first?

Dirty Player. Easier to get and more effective (ideally should be a random skill, to keep the Hobbo cheaper). Sneaky Git is a Secondary skill and it's not as good as Dirty Player (in terms of cost/effect/TV).

Verminardo wrote:

What about stat increases? I'm in the "carry with a Hobbo" camp and I'm thinking to take one on my ball carrier early on, +MA and +AG would both be good and if I don't get either, I can take the Double for Dodge.

I carry with a Hobbo as well, I took Block, Sure Hands, then +stats. +MA is the best stat cost-effect-wise.
+AG is not as good because it's more expensive than in the past ruleset and it doesn't affect passing.
You can proxy AG 4 with Break Tackle for the odd dodge when marked. In theory the ball carrier should make just 1-2 critical dodges in most of games (and not in the same turn).


Last edited by MattDakka on Dec 29, 2021 - 22:50; edited 1 time in total
Alien_the_Alien



Joined: Apr 22, 2020

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2021 - 22:50 Reply with quote Back to top

C0ddlefish wrote:


Edit: I believe NAF stats have them as the 4th best team this year which is no surprise.


In 2021 they are currently rated 4th best team behind Underword, High Elves and Bretonnians. Since a very low number of games was played with Bretonnians, they can be considered #3 imo.
They have an overall winrate of 54.8% and are the 12th most popular team (with 969 games registered on the website).

In comparison with previous years: last time they ranked #4 (winrate: 54%) or better was 2011, and #3 or better was 2004 (WR: 57.9%). In 2020 they had a WR of 52.4 which was already their highest in the decade before 2021, and they've been around 51-52% the rest of the time.

In [C], they are currently ranked as the #8 best team with a 54.07% winrate, right between Humans and Lizardmen. They are still quite a bash heavy team with 2.04 injuries inflicted per game vs 1.31 sustained, for a delta of +0.73, which is only topped by Orcs (+1.03), Dwarfs (+1.1), and Undead (+0.73).
The standard chorf team in [C] is usually very bash heavy with the dwarfs (guard, mighty blow are king), with at least one centaur also focused on bash (guard, block, mb), while the rest of the team usually goes for secondaries (dodge on the centaurs seems popular) and stat upgrades (I've seen quite a lot of +MA/+AGI hobgoblin ball carriers).

Overall, the team seems to be performing better than it used to, but not necessarily because they are advantaged: it's more because their worst opponents (fast/agile teams) are more disadvantaged and bash is king. In league, the ability to go for stat upgrades opens the full potential of their centaurs but also makes the hobgoblin ball carrier a valid option on the mid/long term. Contrarily to a lot of bash teams (like chaos), they already start with blocks, which makes them instantly viable. They are in the same group as Undead and Orcs at low TV, with more options for development at higher TV.
Kinks



Joined: Feb 28, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2021 - 22:56 Reply with quote Back to top

I agree with C0ddlefish.

MattDakka says they are not as strong as before, which maybe technically true. However, comparatively I think the update has nerfed (nearly?) all teams and chorfs don't do to badly out of it IMO.

- Passing nerfs are not a problem for them.
- Ability to choose stat increases is super useful.
- Redrafting isn't too bad for them. Hobs are expendable and if you have to replace a blocker rookies have excellent bas skills.

I was never keen on the Mino (I miss chorf trolls), I'm not sure big guys are optimal on most teams anymore, but that's probably a whole different topic.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2021 - 23:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Old CDs could have 1-2 Claw players early and Claw was stronger. Now taking Claw requires more time (in theory even with 6 SPPs, at first level up, in old rules), it's harder and weaker as skill.
You could say that now, with 6 SPPs, you could random a Secondary and hope for Claw, but it's 1/12, while with old rules just a double roll was required (so, 1/6).
So, they are less bashy than they used to be. Compare CRP/BB2016 CDs to BB2020 CDs, there is a big bashing difference.
Moreover, there is no MVP nomination, so skilling up CDs and especially Bull Centaurs it's slower than in the past. Building a Bull Centaur ball carrier is less advantageous now because more games are needed and then Season Re-Draft happens (assuming a Season of 15 games or less). Break Tackle is worse, so Bull Centaurs have been indirectly nerfed.


Last edited by MattDakka on Dec 30, 2021 - 15:39; edited 1 time in total
Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 30, 2021 - 00:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Even if you can't "cycle" hobgoblins, the hit rate of good General skills for linemen types is so high that you definitely want to go random for half price.

Also, you can always "cycle" the roster at the end of the season.

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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 30, 2021 - 01:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Grod wrote:
you can always "cycle" the roster at the end of the season.
And the season ends when you say it does.

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tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 30, 2021 - 01:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Chorfs are still a great starting team, but development-wise, they used to peak at 1800 or so with superstar BT bulls and agile hobs and claw chorfs in a stack of Guardfirm/MB, hopefully a +ST chorf.

And essentially all of that is gone. Random linos will be solid, but I can't see two developed bulls ever, and anything more than a smattering of two-skill chorfs will be quite rare.

There used to be aggressive min-max builds for them though, so those could come back, one good defensive sacker bull, one good killer chorf, one good carrier hob, and mostly rookies, couple guards. and that team's not super good, not compared to multi-superstar and legend packed LRB6 Chorfs higher up.

It's just that if your team has 3-5 skilled players, and rookies, you'd way rather be any of the elf teams, or necro, norse, undead, humans, orcs, even regular Dorfs have advantages there.

C div stats are just 5 games per team, on average, yeah chorfs are great down there, but their development path is relatively dead now.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 30, 2021 - 07:28 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
Grod wrote:
you can always "cycle" the roster at the end of the season.
And the season ends when you say it does.


Though, if you keep ending season early, your stars will get expensive quickly and you won't get much money.

OK if you are planning to min/max maybe.

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madvig



Joined: Feb 10, 2008

Post   Posted: Dec 30, 2021 - 08:28 Reply with quote Back to top

About this:

MattDakka wrote:

Verminardo wrote:

When building a fouler do we take DP first or SG first?

Dirty Player. Easier to get and more effective (ideally should be a random skill, to keep the Hobbo cheaper). Sneaky Git is a Secondary skill and it's not as good as Dirty Player (in terms of cost/effect/TV).


A choosen secondary is 40k cost and a random primary is 10k. That makes the DP/SG combo a 50k+ price

Going for the SG first with random will be 20k for the random specal skill and 20k for the choosen primary.

I would say you should go for the SG first if you want the combo.

If you just want to foul i agree with Mr MattDakka.
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 30, 2021 - 15:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Cycling for SG seems tedious though if you don't want to keep any other AG skill except maybe Dodge...

Thanks for the replies, keep 'em coming!

In NAF I've seen some Wrestle bulls, is that something you'd consider for higher TV? I've played CDs a bit in NAF Online but I didn't really feel them to be on par with Undead for instance. Maybe that's because I suck at CDs... Wink
sebco



Joined: Feb 14, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 30, 2021 - 16:12 Reply with quote Back to top

In BB 2016 (and before), chorfs was an heavy team I really liked to play at low TV because they were already abble to deal with all elves while other heavy teams need tackle guys.

My most important interrogation with BB 2020 is "will there be as many elves as before?"
Another question is "will there be many many teams with stunty guys" (not only ogres/goblins/halflings but also snotlings/new underworld/black orcs/humans with halflings, etc...)

I'm not sure about the answers. I have trouble understanding the new meta and will wait for Black Box scheduler to be back in BB 2020 environment to have a better opinion on that point.

Some teams are polyvalent / abble to deal with every kind of opponents. Some are really affected by the meta.

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Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Dec 30, 2021 - 20:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Verminardo wrote:
Cycling for SG seems tedious though if you don't want to keep any other AG skill except maybe Dodge...

Are their any other AG skills you would keep? Diving Tackle and Side Step are decent but may not help the team a lot.

There are a few options. I can see if you are planning on the full 15 game cycles you may want to get a cheap Dodge for a ball carrier. Occasionally taking a random secondary will help.

My thought is the same for Claw. Not going to pay 40k to get it but Dwarf #6 may take a random mutation for fun. Horns has its use as does Tail and Tentacles. It is another 1/3 I would keep. Clearly only a strategy for cash rich team.

It may all change once we have actual redraft. Winning a Major means being your best in each game. If you are going to fire the players at the end anyway some random skills may be just the thing to get a short term boost.

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tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 31, 2021 - 06:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Sneaky Git on random AG would be perfect. Get 'em to DP/SG and keep 'em until they die.

SG + DP
Dodge + block/surehand/stats
Side Step + wrestle/fend
Diving Tackle + block/fend
Jump Up + wrestle
Leap + strip ball/wrestle
Defensive + block
Safe Pair of Hands + block/surehand

Catch, Diving Catch, Sure Feet, Sprint, those are your only real wasted skills at 20k. And you can at least help farm up someone else with Catch.

I think if you do get to 6spp, unless you're desperate for a particular G skill, random A is the only way to get any of that, except SG after random DP.

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