| Poll |
| Is BB20 really a problem? |
| Yes. |
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18% |
[ 29 ] |
| I miss CLAWPOMB. |
|
10% |
[ 16 ] |
| Dwarfs still like it. |
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14% |
[ 22 ] |
| Game should use 1d8 instead of 1d6. |
|
9% |
[ 15 ] |
| I've left fumbbl since the update and didn't even read this. |
|
7% |
[ 12 ] |
| Throw Team Mate is bugged. |
|
3% |
[ 5 ] |
| I will always find a way to minmax! |
|
11% |
[ 18 ] |
| Pie. |
|
24% |
[ 38 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 155 |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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 Posted:
Jun 23, 2022 - 01:55 |
 
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| PainState wrote: | | Do you think if the base TV level was raised to let say TV 1650...That some teams would drop off because that high of a TV is out of their optimum range and that other teams would then become to powerful because in the range of TV they are now at their zenith of TV optimization. |
I do, yes.
I know it's just opinion, but as I said Bloodbowl at the 1300-1700 mark is at its peak. Teams that start powerful (like norse or amazons, or humans)) have lost their edge, and teams that start weak have yet to become dominant (like expensive elves, or nurgle, that was dominating every long-term no-redraft setting before).
If I were to choose I'd probably even keep it a little lower than that, but once you factor in the rerolls, I guess 1350 is a good starting point.
Just as an aside, this is what our league looks like in its five seasons:
First season: Humans (Winner) and Necro (Runnerup)
Second season: Underworld (Winner) and DarkElf (Runnerup)
Third season: Lizardmen (Winner) and HighElf (Runnerup)
Fourth season: Imperial Nobles (Winner) and Skaven (Runnerup)
Fifth season: we are starting the playoffs now and the four teams qualified are Undead, Chaos Dwarfs, Skaven and Necro (yeah, we're becoming a bit bashier as time goes on).
Looks like a nice variety to me. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2022 - 02:59 |
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Okay, so I tried pretty hard to game 1350k with 15-game teams, and seriously, if you want, there's nothing stopping you from breaking 1800k in your team's second season. Minimum agent fees means maximum players, and just don't take unnecessary skills on players you know you have to take back. Like, that Guard Blitzer with 18 SPP is 20k better than a Guard/Mighty Blow Blitzer with 10 SPP at end of season, and you can just give the player Mighty Blow after one game.
Also, random skills make a huge difference, even just one. One random skill that turned into something you wanted anyway saves you half your first season agent fees. Random doubles are twice as tasty, if you roll right. So let's say your Humans get a Lineman up to 6 points early, but you don't have any Block apart from your Blitzers, so you just do the safe thing and Block him up. Well, now he's two MVPs or two Cas and a MVP away from getting a random Strength skill. Just picking a General skill wouldn't make him a keeper, but if you roll Guard, Mighty Blow, Grab, Stand Firm, Juggernaut, or Break Tackle you have something good that you can consider taking back the following season, at a cost that doesn't break the bank. Since he can't take Strong Arm, that's a 54.5% chance of success. And if not, he wasn't special.
You can still build a gnarly team in 30 games plus tournament. You just can't keep it together and have to rebuild periodically. Every rebuild will be a little different, too, which challenges your coaching skills over time. It won't be efficient anymore to live in a world with the same half-dozen skills spammed across most of your roster, you will have to be able to adapt to what comes. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2022 - 07:18 |
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If this is what you want to do that is fine. If it not, I guess it kinda feels just a little bit like being told to "**** off".
But that is the way of the world. Times change. People come and go and are replaced by different people.
Places you've loved for many, many years are now just car parks, supermarkets or housing developments.
"Suck it up Grandad. Do the new thing or do something else." |
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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
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ClayInfinity
Joined: Aug 15, 2003
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2022 - 14:37 |
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| PainState wrote: | | ClayInfinity wrote: |
I wrote a long post, see above... |
Ok, cool, "we" are starting to have a conversation. This is a safe place, we can talk, talk critically about your warped Blood Bowl world view and still be friends, no, seriously, Iam serious. :}
I think I will just do this in bullet point format, I do not want to get to long winded.
*You appreciate some people like high TV, well, that comes off as a small minority of "old" guys like high tv.
*you are concerned if teams get into the 2000+TV range, where I propose the base TV redraft should be at, well they will just create a core group of players and then just hire fire all the scrubs to make a team who has a "work around" of the TV redraft mechanic. MMMM, just like real life teams do. Now, hold on, Iam not saying FUMBBL should be just like real life sports but we cannot deny that Blood Bowl is based on American Football with a euro rugby twist. The reality of real life sports is and the economics of those sports (TV) plays out every day on our sports news stations. Who is getting transferred, who is getting "cut", who is retiring?
So, you seem to have a issue with a team who can sit at 2000tv redraft budget for lets say 80 games with their core players, some of their players might reach legend level.
Why is that bad? why is it bad for FUMBBL? Iam serious...how is this bad for the community of FUMBBL coaches?
*You talk about how teams INYO are really tough and brutal at the 1400 TV range right now based on teams who are currently playing in the C div.
Then you couple it with your view that Blood Bowl actually is a 1400-1800 tv range game. Is that to make it "fair"? does TV really make games "fair"? the ability of coaches is way more important than TV, we all know this deep down.
I will take you at your word that you are really not telling people how they should enjoy FUMBBL or just playing this great game of Blood Bowl. But, sir, when you say that the C div is not a competitive because they could make teams that are just SPP farms and bloat up to a 2000+TV range and some how that unbalances the game? Well, that comes off as a coach who says I do not like to play in C/B because some coaches like high TV, make high SPP players, farm, pick, and........... to many complaints to list here.
For me sir, you are the typical (L) style player who cant handle the open nature of C/B. You deeply want to play in the biggest leagues on FUMBBL which are actually C/B but you cant handle the meta. To the point that the meta Iam advocating for that C/B should have a base redraft of at least 2000TV.
Iam saying that every coach on this site has the "choice" of playing what ever TV level they desire.
BUT
Do not tell me Iam exiled from C/B play if I want my teams to go over an X level or 1800TV and if I do I need to talk to Kodah and join some god forsaken L div league.....No offense Kodah, i do like you.
As the Unofffical historian of FUMBBL iam deeply concerned about the long and storied history of some the greatest teams and coaches who have ever played Blood Bowl on this site getting, gimped, cut down to size and reduced to some paltry shadow of its former glory. I know Iam a old FUMBBL coach, I love the history of though of the teams who have been created, competed, battled it out in majors. The glorious moments of watching tournaments as a spectator. I have witnessed some of the most glorious moments of Blood Bowl history on this site.
Yes, for me, it comes down to a redraft of a 2000TV in C/B. that is how you make legend teams. If you happen to be a good to great coach maybe you can guide them to glory in FUMMBL majors. I will be watching and recording your epic run to greatness. |
Trying to keep it in dot points:
"You appreciate some people like high TV, well, that comes off as a small minority of "old" guys like high tv."
Nothing of the sort... I dont think age of the player has anything to do with it. I have no idea how old you are, but I pre-date you by 4yrs on fumbbl according to our profiles. I was one of the early adopters of fumbbl. I dont think age / longevity of BB experience has anything to do with my post. Some coaches like High TV, some do not. I am in the "do not" category.
My without redraft, a team that has played 50+ games and has a TV of 1450k looks ALOT differently to a team that has 10 games and 1450k. A 50+ game team has a couple of gun stars/legends and rookies. A 10 game team has 12 players with one skill each or therabouts. TV's may be equal, but the game experience is not.
People can play BB any way that they want... I truly believe that and I think high TV has a place in the game. When I played as a 16yo in 1988 with the Red and Yellow books, teams like the Chaos All-Stars were the equivalent of a 2500k TV team. Its blood bowl "canon" if you like.
However, for a game to suit online play with the ability of the site to support fair chances of coaches winning majors or the like, Christer has said that he wants the guy who plays fumbbl once a week to have an equal shot as the guy who plays 10 games a day. Moving the re-draft bar to 2000k would remove that ability for the site to provide that environment. Its got nothing to do with liking or disliking high TV play.
"For me sir, you are the typical (L) style player who cant handle the open nature of C/B. You deeply want to play in the biggest leagues on FUMBBL which are actually C/B but you cant handle the meta. To the point that the meta Iam advocating for that C/B should have a base redraft of at least 2000TV."
Thats very presumptuous of you. I have lived in blood bowl exile for 13yrs in the Middle East where fumbbl (apart from attending two world cups) was my ONLY blood bowl. No table top in Dubai ever for me! I have played since 2003 all types of fumbbl. Ranked, Black Box, am a founding member of the SWL, Ladder, Black Box Trophy and probably any other type that I have forgotten. The only area I have not really gotten involved in is Secret League (no reason...).
I have played all sorts of BB for 34 years of my life and for the last 19 years fumbbl has been apart of that. I havent won any Major on fumbbl but thats not for the lack of trying. I came inside the Top 10% at Dornbirn with fucking Chaos is probably my greatest BB achievement.
I do appreciate your history and longevity here too, but dont tell me I can't handle playing in a competitive format. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2022 - 16:48 |
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| ClayInfinity wrote: |
However, for a game to suit online play with the ability of the site to support fair chances of coaches winning majors or the like, Christer has said that he wants the guy who plays fumbbl once a week to have an equal shot as the guy who plays 10 games a day. Moving the re-draft bar to 2000k would remove that ability for the site to provide that environment. Its got nothing to do with liking or disliking high TV play. |
Assuming that the coach enjoys grinding their team back up from 1350.
Liking or not liking high TV has a lot to do with it. i.e. You're not going to be able to play much high TV before being kicked back down again. Especially if you are usually one (or maybe two) and done like me. 
So, if I'm only going to be able to play one or two games a week I'm not going to waste them on the Competitive division. |
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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2022 - 17:01 |
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I think that's a boost honestly; coaches who just park teams for majors over and over and don't play them outside of one or two builder games between majors, for me, isn't a good way to do majors. That's not a super awesome team with amazing history - that's a customized team that only comes out to play when there's a reward.
Redraft means that those teams HAVE to play between majors - which means those teams will be more well known, which means more history, which means more fluff. Which is a good thing. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2022 - 17:16 |
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While I do see the need to rebuild between majors as a good thing when it comes to highly active coaches, it does mean that if you are a once-a-week type, you're going to be at a disadvantage if you can't play a full season between majors, and a minor disadvantage if you can't do 30-matches-tournament-rinse-repeat with your majors team. Cuz that's likely to be the new majors meta: play a season, redraft, play a season, tournament, fire everyone and run with an all-rookie squad for the next two seasons. (Not stuck on a million, you could take full positionals, but all new players.)
Do note, however, that now it's not at all hard to build super stars in that time, and the new SPP rules make hitting legend pretty easy, though if you want to play long with them that probably means extra agent fees. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2022 - 17:25 |
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| Nelphine wrote: | I think that's a boost honestly; coaches who just park teams for majors over and over and don't play them outside of one or two builder games between majors, for me, isn't a good way to do majors. That's not a super awesome team with amazing history - that's a customized team that only comes out to play when there's a reward.
Redraft means that those teams HAVE to play between majors - which means those teams will be more well known, which means more history, which means more fluff. Which is a good thing. |
Ah, so that's a "**** off" then.
Just wanted to be sure. |
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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2022 - 17:49 |
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i mean, you're the one who has constantly said you like teams with high tv and a big history. this makes you get the history. |
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Java
Joined: Jan 27, 2018
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2022 - 21:37 |
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a redrafted team starts at 1250 and will probably balloon to 1700 or so on average during the regular season, because of added bench and rerolls and skills and stuff, so you'll have your fat majors, koadah, don't you worry
my chorfs ended 15 games at 1700 in season 1 (ok, I bought a mino for a laugh, but still) |
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Vlad Von Carstein's door-to-door evangelist |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2022 - 23:15 |
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| ClayInfinity wrote: |
My without redraft, a team that has played 50+ games and has a TV of 1450k looks ALOT differently to a team that has 10 games and 1450k. A 50+ game team has a couple of gun stars/legends and rookies. A 10 game team has 12 players with one skill each or therabouts. TV's may be equal, but the game experience is not.
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Oh, my we just keep on "cooking" on this thread.
So, Iam going to give up on the TV base reset discussion for now. I feel that some coaches who I respect their thoughts on Blood Bowl will make me take a, "lets see how it goes approach". Granted I had to hit the whiskey hard to accept this approach, since, well, that is not how I approach things. I felt I made a lucid and very well thought argument that TV reset should be higher than 1350, fine, ok, Iam moving on.
yeah, you are right, Iam not really going to give up that easy.
Clayinfinty though brought this up which has, IMO, been really over looked. Lets put the discussion of TV reset on the side, it really effects C/B play when it comes to tournaments.
What do "we" do about teams who apply for a tournament BUT all the teams are all on different seasons of play?
Do we ignore that and just go by TV?
Mr Infinty implies that would not be fair. Thus a C/B major would be once again slanted in the favor of those who play a lot of games on one team to "pimp" them for a major and some "Joe" who can only play one game a week in the C/B div and cause a disadvantage to certain coaches.
SO
How do you resolve this? Does FUMBBL reset the C/B majors and only allow teams into the major that are on their first season? Does TV of a team no longer matter?
If the answer is YES...well then when it comes to FUMBBL tournaments, majors and minors FUMBBL has then once again split the coaches into very finite and small groups of players. Participation in these types of events will most likely hit rock bottom lows.
Thus we create a scenario where playing in C/B for tournament play is pointless.
You want tournament play you need to head on over to (L) play. You want to just play a random game of Blood Bowl, well C/B is you cup of tea. Thus FUMBBL is reduced to just League play and the open divs are for the bored guys, just want to play a game or two.
Totally turning FUMBBL on top of its head. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2022 - 23:21 |
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Side note....lets put tournament play on the side. Your day to day C/B action, is that also restricted by seasons of play?
If I put a team on gamefinder on their 4 season I only see teams who are also on their 4th season? Same goes for putting a team into the box scheduler. |
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Comish of the: |
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Java
Joined: Jan 27, 2018
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2022 - 23:24 |
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haven't heard that before, don't think Christer has hinted at such restrictions
it would be counterproductive to the idea of C being the one stop shop for pickup games, either algorithmically- or hand-picked |
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Vlad Von Carstein's door-to-door evangelist |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2022 - 23:27 |
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DO NOT OPEN THAT BOX MAN!!!!! cant you see it is full of worms? |
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Comish of the: |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Jun 23, 2022 - 23:29 |
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| Java wrote: | haven't heard that before, don't think Christer has hinted at such restrictions
it would be counterproductive to the idea of C being the one stop shop for pickup games, either algorithmically- or hand-picked |
This has been lurking behind the scenes of TV redraft from day #1. I have not been focused on it in my many "rants" but it has always been there. |
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