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Poll
Is BB20 really a problem?
Yes.
18%
 18%  [ 28 ]
I miss CLAWPOMB.
10%
 10%  [ 16 ]
Dwarfs still like it.
14%
 14%  [ 22 ]
Game should use 1d8 instead of 1d6.
9%
 9%  [ 15 ]
I've left fumbbl since the update and didn't even read this.
7%
 7%  [ 12 ]
Throw Team Mate is bugged.
3%
 3%  [ 5 ]
I will always find a way to minmax!
11%
 11%  [ 18 ]
Pie.
24%
 24%  [ 38 ]
Total Votes : 154


C0ddlefish



Joined: Sep 17, 2019

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2022 - 00:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Probably the only major one for me really is the new skilling system. (Passing if WI didn't exist would be ok)

The excitement of a double or stat roll was great as it potentially changed you plan for a player and possibly even the team.



Now can get whatever you want and plan for it. The only excitement is I might get that skill I want for 10k less that before
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2022 - 01:05 Reply with quote Back to top

You can't exactly get whatever you want always, but often, indeed.
And the teams getting what they want easily (+MA, typically) are teams already strong (bash and hybrid).
Elves don't have much to get after the first +MA and +AG. +ST is nice but expensive, +PA is not that good, you can build a Catcher to run the ball or just take Accurate/Cannoneer with fewer SPPs). Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that a Thrower is useless, but there is not much return on skilling him up. A basic Thrower with 1-2 skills (Leader, Sure Hands or Cannoneer) is enough.
The random MVP is bad too because makes hard to skill the few positionals on an Elf team, while teams such as Dwarfs, Chorfs, Orcs, Norse don't care as much about who gets the MVP, and these teams are already strong.
If somebody is interested, on my About page there are House rules inspired by playing BB2020 and trying to fix/mitigate some flaws. This way I will not spam the thread. Just 2 rules, because many people (me included) complained about passing:

- Pass: reduces Wildly Inaccurate to D3 scatter.
- Safe Pass: turns Wildly Inaccurate into Inaccurate, Inaccurate into Fumble, Fumble into held ball (no turnover).

There is more than that (I invented a D8 passing system).
MrCushtie



Joined: Aug 10, 2018

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2022 - 01:14 Reply with quote Back to top

What I don't get is people complaining about Officious Ref on the kick off table, as if in the glorious days of 2016 rules, nobody ever had their player killed by a rock from the crowd.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2022 - 01:17 Reply with quote Back to top

A player could have been just KO or Badly Hurt and the Apo would have healed him automatically. An ejected player due to Officious Ref can't be kept in game by an Apo.
As an aside, this is how I would change Officious Ref:
1: player is temporarily ejected and sent to Reserves for the rest of the drive (Argue the Call and Bribe can be used); 2+: player is Stunned;
MisterFurious



Joined: Aug 11, 2010

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2022 - 02:07 Reply with quote Back to top

MrCushtie wrote:
What I don't get is people complaining about Officious Ref on the kick off table, as if in the glorious days of 2016 rules, nobody ever had their player killed by a rock from the crowd.


I did.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2022 - 02:18 Reply with quote Back to top

MrCushtie wrote:
What I don't get is people complaining about Officious Ref on the kick off table, as if in the glorious days of 2016 rules, nobody ever had their player killed by a rock from the crowd.


Those are probably the people who argued for softening the kick-off table in the first place.

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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Stars - Anniversary Bowl - Teams of Stars - 13th March
Tulkas_jrrt



Joined: Apr 30, 2012

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2022 - 06:55 Reply with quote Back to top

MrCushtie wrote:
What I don't get is people complaining about Officious Ref on the kick off table, as if in the glorious days of 2016 rules, nobody ever had their player killed by a rock from the crowd.

Brand new block Krox on a turn 8 1ttd try...
I like bb2020 for the new kick off table, which doesn't kill the game, the "not all guy in a elf team can pass", but i don't like the over powered star players.
Tournament organizer as me are working hard to avoid stars and linemen teams winning all games

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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2022 - 07:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Tulkas_jrrt wrote:

Tournament organizer as me are working hard to avoid stars and linemen teams winning all games


Why? Either ban stars entirely or accept that they are designed to dominate the game. Players will adjust accordingly.
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2022 - 10:01 Reply with quote Back to top

The nuclear option (banning or heavily burdening stars like Malta did) kills off anyone who wants to just have a chainsaw guy in their team, show off a nice conversion for a particular star, silly things like that

I've seen what rosters come to untiered events, it's a bit dull.

I'd rather have a limited ban for the big 4-5 (Morg, Deeproot, Hakflem, Griff and maybe Grombrindal) and free for all on the rest who aren't that big of a problem. To be extended if Ivar and Thorson turn out to be on par with them, but I doubt it.

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Tulkas_jrrt



Joined: Apr 30, 2012

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2022 - 10:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Kondor wrote:
Tulkas_jrrt wrote:

Tournament organizer as me are working hard to avoid stars and linemen teams winning all games


Why? Either ban stars entirely or accept that they are designed to dominate the game. Players will adjust accordingly.


Cause i don't like banning all star cause they help some roster to be playable and i like the diversity (I've been traumatize by wood-elfs hords in my youth years as a coach).

#notallstars

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2022 - 10:54 Reply with quote Back to top

How about alter the star costs?

A "standard" set of alternative costs would be cool.

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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Stars - Anniversary Bowl - Teams of Stars - 13th March
Tulkas_jrrt



Joined: Apr 30, 2012

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2022 - 11:27 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
How about alter the star costs?

A "standard" set of alternative costs would be cool.


There is a lot of solutions to make it work. But it is a lot of work, and GW adds star players every month ... Boomer costing double is still a major threat to the tournament play ...
Star players are a pain in the *ss and that is all.

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Azur



Joined: Nov 13, 2020

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2022 - 11:30 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
How about alter the star costs?

A "standard" set of alternative costs would be cool.


This alternative standard already exists - GW's masterminds offer us the "Death Zone mercenary system".

Let's build our own Dribblesnot clone, but with block, stab, Sneaky Gits and Leader for only 30k!! (ok, I'm exagerating a little bit, but.... you know)
Or... Let's simply draft a giant! only 28 squares of tackle zone!!
Griff is so overrated..... Wink

Aaaaaah, BB2020!!
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2022 - 12:27 Reply with quote Back to top

I haven't played much Fumbbl but that has more to do with the absence of Blackbox than with BB20 I guess.

I fully agree that making passing worse while trying to buff it is an unforgivable failure of game design, and that multiple rerolls per turn is just incredibly lame and takes away a whole tactical dimension. There is a long list, I actually don't have a problem with the fouling but most everything else I subscribe to.

The main thing for me though is that BB20 (and to a degree BB16) have broken up the elegant and holistic design of CRP and the LRBs, and kept adding random stuff without any regard to (or awareness of?) the underlying design principles. Yo dawg, I heard you like mayhem so I'll keep adding more random mayhem. Oh look, a pig with a keg, lol. This is the kind of stuff that some dude who's never played BB might see zapping through Twitch on a Saturday night after his 4th beer, laugh at, and tell his mate the other day, who might then buy BB3 on Steam sale, try it out 3 hours, and never play it again. And then GW get their royalty and they're happy, and they'll keep releasing stuff and as long as people buy it they don't even care.

It's appearance not substance. It's like Game of Thrones S8 or the Star Wars prequels. I just hate that GW can get away with it (yay capitalism). But what gets me most is that a considerable part of the fanbase actually seems to like it.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2022 - 12:48 Reply with quote Back to top

I think of it as a bit like soccer team jerseys. You can buy a new one every year at a massively inflated price, or you can buy a replica 1970s shirt and wear it until it falls apart.

Once you have bought the box it is yours to do what you like with. The rulebook is very nice. It has loads of fluff and pretty artwork, but you don't actually have to read the rules. Twisted Evil

If you like beer pigs, great. Good for you. I think I might give them a "tusks" trait that is pretty much the same as RSC.Smile
Or do they already have that?

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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Stars - Anniversary Bowl - Teams of Stars - 13th March
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