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Poll
Is BB20 really a problem?
Yes.
18%
 18%  [ 28 ]
I miss CLAWPOMB.
10%
 10%  [ 16 ]
Dwarfs still like it.
14%
 14%  [ 22 ]
Game should use 1d8 instead of 1d6.
9%
 9%  [ 15 ]
I've left fumbbl since the update and didn't even read this.
7%
 7%  [ 12 ]
Throw Team Mate is bugged.
3%
 3%  [ 5 ]
I will always find a way to minmax!
11%
 11%  [ 18 ]
Pie.
24%
 24%  [ 38 ]
Total Votes : 154


Garion26



Joined: Nov 28, 2021

Post   Posted: Jul 27, 2022 - 21:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:

In 2020, they are no longer healthy. An optimal team DOES include a star - since they are better than any player you can develop - but since you can't roster them, that means if you want the best team, you have to arbitrarily stunt the development of your actual players in order to keep the star.


So I'll reiterate Nelphine in C if you are trying to win games in C, are you purposefully accepting matches against teams 200 or so TV above you because you think Griff/Hakflem would make you more likely to win against the big team then a team at the same TV as yours?

You framed this in terms of long term team development if you are in a league and other teams are developing will you purposefully hold off on levelling your own players until they are forced to (SPP 1Cool to guarantee one of the stars?

I'm not arguing no one has ever done that, but I haven't seen it happen in my tabletop leagues or in my experience in C. Are you seeing that as a common approach?
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 27, 2022 - 22:38 Reply with quote Back to top

in C, the most common example of this are morgflem snots. it absolutely happens regularly. with other teams, it's harder because more coaches are concerned about that gap if you aren't a stunty, and don't accept your offer. most people give up and play what they can get instead. but, i fully expect this to become a common approach in the scheduler - play the lowest tv team you can, so that either you're matched against rookies, and you have the advantage of having a few skilled players, or you're matched against a high tv team, and you get perfect stars, and actually have the better team.

in response to this, i expect the scheduler will be even lower tv than it was in 2016 (where it usually started to dry up beyond 1600tv or so; i expect it will start drying up by 1300-1400 now)

and its not just holding off on levelling players - it's firing healthy, well developed players who are skilled. 'oh, my blitzer got a perfect skill? useless, fire him and start again'


in 2016, we already saw this with skinks - one skill skinks were a liability, and would be fired. I'm expecting to see this happen to a lot more players now.


Last edited by Nelphine on Jul 27, 2022 - 22:48; edited 1 time in total
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 27, 2022 - 22:42 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Kondor wrote:

The things I dislike most about 2020 are the new kick off table and seasons. However, stars are one of the things I think they got right. I love it.

Weirdly, the Kick-Off table (apart from Officious Ref) is one of the 2 things I like of BB2020. It is not perfect, but way better than old Kick-Off table, imho and from my particular perspective.
About the Stars, I want to talk only about the ones I faced (anecdotes, I know), and Bomber seems to be absolutely too good and too cheap. Morg is very good but, relatively speaking, worse than Bomber, as cost-effect (moreover, I didn't face Morg as often as Bomber). I faced Griff too, but he was not decisive (although he made the game hard). Akhorne, it doesn't look OP, but a hit-or-miss cheap Star Player. It can knock down a ball carrier with a lucky 1d cagedive or maybe score a TD but it's super squishy. Glart was ok too for the price. Zolcath was ok too. Fungus is ok as well. So far, most of the Stars I faced looked quite balanced. I understand, on the other hand, that in different formats inducing Morg, Griff, Hakflem can create issues, especially if you can do it every game and if you induce more than one of them.
edit. the special Star Players' abilities were not always implemented when I faced them, so please take my impressions with a pinch of salt.


This is because we enjoy the two opposite aspects of the game. You crave balance and want to reduce randomness in the game. I think the randomness is part of what makes the game fun and expect aspects of the game to be unbalanced.

I feel the best coaches deal with the randomness and see countering Nuffles fickleness as part of the game we love.

Unless a coach chooses to play stunties or you get the Zon vs Dwarf matchup the balance is good enough to make most games between equal coaches competitive. That is what I want.
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 27, 2022 - 22:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
in C, the most common example of this are morgflem snots. it absolutely happens regularly. with other teams, it's harder because more coaches are concerned about that gap if you aren't a stunty, and don't accept your offer. most people give up and play what they can get instead. but, i fully expect this to become a common approach in the scheduler - play the lowest tv team you can, so that either you're matched against rookies, and you have the advantage of having a few skilled players, or you're matched against a high tv team, and you get perfect stars, and actually have the better team.

in response to this, i expect the scheduler will be even lower tv than it was in 2016 (where it usually started to dry up beyond 1600tv or so; i expect it will start drying up by 1300-1400 now)

and its not just holding off on levelling players - it's firing players who are skilled. 'oh, my blitzer got a perfect skill? useless, fire him and start again'


in 2016, we already saw this with skinks - one skill skinks were a liability, and would be fired. I'm expecting to see this happen to a lot more players now.


I hope you are right and the ceiling is removed so that teams can get as big as a coach wants to grow it.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 27, 2022 - 22:51 Reply with quote Back to top

no one will grow it if i'm right. if you lose every game due to morgflem (or whatever your opponent has designed), people will grow frustrated and stop doing it, just like people stopped playing in the box beyond 1600tv.

and unlike crp, where you could hope your opponents clawpombers would die (if you did risk playing in that high tv box environment), and therefore bring you some comfort, stars never die. as long as you have the cash or the inducements, you get them, every single game, no matter how many times they are hurt. you don't have to develop them, you don't have to grow them, you just fork over some cash, and boom, there they are.
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 27, 2022 - 23:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Using stars to amass spps in a League is a pretty bad idea because it keeps the team from growing. So even if you can keep the ball with Hakflem and score with him, your skaven team is worse for it.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 27, 2022 - 23:56 Reply with quote Back to top

no, the point is that no matter how many spp you get, you can't make players as good as the stars anymore (because they are underpriced)

Do you want a Str 4 Ag2+ human blitzer? Why? Griff is cheaper than any one you could ever build (and he gets 3 skills for free to boot)

Do you want a Str 3 gutter runner? Why? Hakflem is cheaper than any one you could ever build (and he gets extra skills on top of that)

Do you want a killer? Why? Morg has +2 MB, which is something you can never build. And even if you could, he's stronger, and has better armour, and is cheaper, than any one you could ever build (and he can throw thing and has AG 3+ on top of that)

Why bother getting spp, when you can just hire a better version of the player you want to build anyway?
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 28, 2022 - 00:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:

Why bother getting spp, when you can just hire a better version of the player you want to build anyway?

And, unlike the rostered players, the Star Players never have to be retired. They always cost the same, no matter how many Seasons your team has played.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 28, 2022 - 01:41 Reply with quote Back to top

You walk away for one day…

@Nelphine: if I have 13-player Orcs, i want to maximize my player advantage by fouling, as I can handle a trade. If I can get a Bribe in the process, that’s even better, as it lets me foul until I get caught TWICE. You’re bang-on about Stars, though I have to say that Hakflem is a lot less scary when you have two MB/Tackle Blitzers. There’s not much in the way of a cure for Morg, though.

@PainState: I’ve always avoided majors because I didn’t have the inclination to build huge teams of competitive races. But now, it looks like starting a few months after the seasons rules are implemented, I’d be interested in playing majors again, a) because it allows me to pad my number of games per season, and b) because after my second season or so, my team will be as built up as anybody’s. I used to play a lot of RRR, but had to stop at some point and never got back to it except for the centennials; now they’re dominated by stupid star-driven teams and that’s just not my speed. But if they fixed majors in the indicated way, that would be a fine trade.

Also, a rebuild with 1350k won’t get you a 1350k team. It’ll get you a (1350k-agent fees) team. If you’re carrying over 6 players from season 1 to season 2, you are 1230k.

@Kondor: propose a match, we can throw down next week. Funny, we cancel out on stuff we do/don’t like: I like the seasons the most, and I don’t like the top-end stars, though overall most of them are okay. (I’m with Nelphine on Morgflem/Morgriff stunties.) I’m kind of in Matt’s camp here. Not about the hypocritical "no splashing except if it's my merc Bull" self-justification, just about the impact of the new stars rules on what was otherwise a very well-considered league.

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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 28, 2022 - 02:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
no, the point is that no matter how many spp you get, you can't make players as good as the stars anymore (because they are underpriced)

Do you want a Str 4 Ag2+ human blitzer? Why? Griff is cheaper than any one you could ever build (and he gets 3 skills for free to boot)

Do you want a Str 3 gutter runner? Why? Hakflem is cheaper than any one you could ever build (and he gets extra skills on top of that)

Do you want a killer? Why? Morg has +2 MB, which is something you can never build. And even if you could, he's stronger, and has better armour, and is cheaper, than any one you could ever build (and he can throw thing and has AG 3+ on top of that)

Why bother getting spp, when you can just hire a better version of the player you want to build anyway?


DUDE!!!! calm down you are talking to much sense...

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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 28, 2022 - 02:41 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:


@PainState: I’ve always avoided majors because I didn’t have the inclination to build huge teams of competitive races. But now, it looks like starting a few months after the seasons rules are implemented, I’d be interested in playing majors again, a) because it allows me to pad my number of games per season, and b) because after my second season or so, my team will be as built up as anybody’s. I used to play a lot of RRR, but had to stop at some point and never got back to it except for the centennials; now they’re dominated by stupid star-driven teams and that’s just not my speed. But if they fixed majors in the indicated way, that would be a fine trade.

Also, a rebuild with 1350k won’t get you a 1350k team. It’ll get you a (1350k-agent fees) team. If you’re carrying over 6 players from season 1 to season 2, you are 1230k.



Thanks for the feed back.. C div hosts more than just Majors..there is a lot of tournament action going on.

Now, I will admit, Blood Bowl is a system based around TV.

So you will have teams sit on game 14 of season X and they are around 1800-2000. They will enter majors at that level.

Thus it is a "game" of do you want to enter a major at X TV to likely get some inducements? Go in as the big dog in TV or just go in as a low TV 1350 ish team and ride the inducement wave.

The BIG change in Majors will be that coaches cannot "sit" teams at X TV and be the big dogs. Never have to worry about playing games and so forth. Redraft has solved that problem.

IMO all coaches should look at playing C tournament action...Majors/minors/XFL and RRR. It is a very level playing field now.

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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 28, 2022 - 06:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Don't forget. You can only take 2 stars. If I have no cap on my team I can build 3-5 legends and a couple other solid players. Now I'm very happy to see Morg/Hack. Don't match by TV or have a small draw in the box and suddenly that Morg/Hack snot team has to face 1350 Dwarfs or any 1350 team really. If you do match by TV those snots and stunties will end up facing mirrors of themselves regularly. Either way it is not something to worry about.

Not as much to worry about if you give me an automatic scheduler and flexibility to build my team how I want to.

RRRs are their own animal. No big deal if snotlings dominate. (I cannot believe I put snotlings and dominate in the same sentence. That in itself is really cool in my opinion.)
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 28, 2022 - 06:45 Reply with quote Back to top

eh, no this is for other teams. i'm talking about something like orcs with 1100 who go against 1500+ teams to get morg. not snotlings. that 1500 team is going to hate that. and if it keeps happening, those 1500 teams will just stop showing up.

the problem appears to be that stars are balanced around the WORST team that can get them, without any consideration to other teams planning around getting them as well.
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 28, 2022 - 08:37 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
eh, no this is for other teams. i'm talking about something like orcs with 1100 who go against 1500+ teams to get morg. not snotlings. that 1500 team is going to hate that. and if it keeps happening, those 1500 teams will just stop showing up.

the problem appears to be that stars are balanced around the WORST team that can get them, without any consideration to other teams planning around getting them as well.


You really think a tv 1100 orc team or human team with morg can consistently beat a tv 1440 undead though?

Honest question. I don't know the answer to that, but I'd lean towards no.

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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 28, 2022 - 10:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
eh, no this is for other teams. i'm talking about something like orcs with 1100 who go against 1500+ teams to get morg. not snotlings. that 1500 team is going to hate that. and if it keeps happening, those 1500 teams will just stop showing up.

the problem appears to be that stars are balanced around the WORST team that can get them, without any consideration to other teams planning around getting them as well.


I would be happy to be the 1500 team in most situations.

1100 Orcs vs 1500 bashing team (Dwarf, Khorne, CD, Undead, Necro, Tomb King, Orc, Black Orc ...) I will be happy using the 1500 team.

Vs Agility - Elves, Amazons. I also like the odds since I will have plenty of blodge on the field to deal with the other playes besides Morg.

The Morg squad will probably do well against things like imps, humans, basic chaos, and stunties.

I would think Morg on an elf or skaven team would make the biggest difference. He gets a few removals while elves are elves. But again you are putting all your eggs in the Morg basket. If that one player rolls below average the rest of your team is severely outmatched.

Once we have an automatic scheduler we will be able to put this to the test better and see if stars are anything other than a picker's paradise.
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