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Poll
Is BB20 really a problem?
Yes.
18%
 18%  [ 28 ]
I miss CLAWPOMB.
10%
 10%  [ 16 ]
Dwarfs still like it.
14%
 14%  [ 22 ]
Game should use 1d8 instead of 1d6.
9%
 9%  [ 15 ]
I've left fumbbl since the update and didn't even read this.
7%
 7%  [ 12 ]
Throw Team Mate is bugged.
3%
 3%  [ 5 ]
I will always find a way to minmax!
11%
 11%  [ 18 ]
Pie.
24%
 24%  [ 38 ]
Total Votes : 154


sebco



Joined: Feb 14, 2005

Post   Posted: Jul 28, 2022 - 10:19 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't already know how it will be in New Black box. I have some experience in BB 2020 Naf tourneys with star players, though. In 1st tourneys, teams with star player dominated. Now, generally, there are special rules when you hire star players (or at least some star players listes), like -2 or -3 additionnal skills, and that's more balanced

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mekutata



Joined: May 03, 2015

Post   Posted: Jul 28, 2022 - 10:28 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't understand how Nelphine would want to plan fielding such a star player build in every game, with maybe the exception of Bomma. Who won't play more than one drive for most teams.

Where should this be a reliable plan with the exception of C "picking" (where I have different experience than described here. Dakka usually rejects to play against me, but he accepeted once to play against my no Troll Goblins)?

Resurrection tournaments that allow you to "roster" a star maybe, but seems that stars are often handled different there already.

But for sure star player costs and costs generally could always use a reevaluation based on game data. Just hard to decide on what environment. Current C with no redraft is currently in some weird inbetween state and generally a bit flawd due the "picking" logic.

In our league we actually raise or lower their asking price based on demand. So if a star does very well, they will be more expensive on the next matchday. Kinda happy with that one, but obviously adds some admin work on fumbbl.

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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 28, 2022 - 15:58 Reply with quote Back to top

I restate my question I posted around 10 pages ago.

Is it common in the C div for coaches to hire a star player not named bomber in pregame?

I have not scene this in my very limited amount of time playing with the new rule set in the C div.

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Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Jul 28, 2022 - 16:03 Reply with quote Back to top

No

It was a bit of a fad with morglings (minimal TV snots, and to a much lesser extent, ogres) in the Rookie Rumbles (the fad actually started in bb16 but it was a lot less effective because BB16 stars were way worse)

Now that GF2 allows you to get games with these teams, it's started to seep into the pickup matches

Every time someone mentions morglings someone else thinks "oh I want to try that" so it will never actually die

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 28, 2022 - 17:08 Reply with quote Back to top

It doesn't matter if its every one of your games (the 1100 team). It matters if its every one of the opponents (1500 team) games.

So I'm 1100. I've got a team that's great against other 1100 teams. I choose to not increase my TV. So there is no 1200 TV team.

You are 1500, because you thought this concept was silly, and did increase your TV- and continued to do so many times.


Note, in the past this was 1800 TV in the box. This behaviour DOES happen - we saw it all the time.

Game time comes. Just like the box 1800 TV team, occasionally another 1500 TV team shows up. But not often. 3/4 of the time the 1500 tv team gets matched against a lower tv team. So, they get matched against the 1100 team. Who Morgs them. After 3 or 4 games of this (even if they get 1 or 2 matches against other 1500 teams in between) the 1500 team gets frustrated, and .. doesn't play the 1500 team again.

Now we have yet one less 1500 team around, and the next 1500 team plays against morg more often. The cycle repeats.


This is my fear - we will see 1500 teams disappear thr same way that 2500, then 2100, then 1800 TV teams all disappeared from the box.
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 28, 2022 - 21:44 Reply with quote Back to top

I do hope I get to regularly put my 1500+ TV Dwarfs against 1100 TV teams that choose to low ball it regularly. I will play them regularly and thus try to encourage all the 100 min/max teams to grow.

The beautiful thing about Blood Bowl is that there is always a counter play.
Garion26



Joined: Nov 28, 2021

Post   Posted: Jul 28, 2022 - 21:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
It doesn't matter if its every one of your games (the 1100 team). It matters if its every one of the opponents (1500 team) games.

So I'm 1100. I've got a team that's great against other 1100 teams. I choose to not increase my TV. So there is no 1200 TV team.

You are 1500, because you thought this concept was silly, and did increase your TV- and continued to do so many times.


Note, in the past this was 1800 TV in the box. This behaviour DOES happen - we saw it all the time.

Game time comes. Just like the box 1800 TV team, occasionally another 1500 TV team shows up. But not often. 3/4 of the time the 1500 tv team gets matched against a lower tv team. So, they get matched against the 1100 team. Who Morgs them. After 3 or 4 games of this (even if they get 1 or 2 matches against other 1500 teams in between) the 1500 team gets frustrated, and .. doesn't play the 1500 team again.

Now we have yet one less 1500 team around, and the next 1500 team plays against morg more often. The cycle repeats.


This is my fear - we will see 1500 teams disappear thr same way that 2500, then 2100, then 1800 TV teams all disappeared from the box.


Nelphine but again is anyone actually seeing this behavior? Folks choosing to play uphill 400 TV just to get Morg because they think they've got a better chance to win then allowing themselves to grow their TV (aside from the previously mentioned morglings?)

Similarly do you think the team with 400 TV of star player inducements is favored against the bigger team?

I don't like getting wizarded or bribe/fouled every turn but I think being 100-200 TV up on the opposing team usually means the up team has an advantage (and Akhorne/secret weapon stars don't really outweigh that) I am not seeing folks take those stars at that TV difference at least though I haven't played 400 TV difference in C
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 28, 2022 - 21:59 Reply with quote Back to top

No, I don't think we're seeing it yet. We don't a) have several prominent coaches doing so and b) have such a large number of teams at 1500 tv+ who would risk playing down 400tv that those coaches would get enough games. We need both of those things first, then I think we'll start seeing it.
PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 28, 2022 - 23:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Ok so if in C play and we are only talking about "pick" games, Iam playing my new Buccaneer team.. I center my team around Griff (280K) or Zug (220K). I would on purpose keep my TV in "check" so to speak and only challenge teams with a +280k TV over me. Thus I could hire either for free. Now maybe I will chip in a little of my cash to make this happen but the ideal game for me is to make sure Iam at the min 220TV UNDER my foe.

IMO this is the issue of changing the C div to a mirror of table top Blood Bowl. It is no longer about long term team development of players or backstory/history of the team. The main focus now is to win games only. You cant make players with 50+ games on them...you cant center your team backstory/history on the players themselves because they will just get cut at most redrafts.

Is it possible to make a TT style team centered around hiring star players every game in the C Div?. Iam sure it is possible if you put your mind to it and like that style of play. You can only do it in a "pick" match making situation and once the Box/scheduler gets introduced to C then...well, you cant do it because of the random nature of games and most likely the spread of TV will be +/- 80 to your team IF you decide to thrown your team into the random scheduler.

Is this a valid tactic to use in the C div tournament scene? Make sure your team is always low TV compared to the field and ride a inducement wave of stars...we will see.

That is the big change on FUMBBL when the redraft is full blow...Tournaments are now going to be a choice between inflate your TV with home grown talent OR go in with low TV and hire a star or two to get you over the top. Before on FUMBBL this concept was never explored because you could make a perpetual team sitting at 2200TV with all the skills you need and never play a game outside of the Tournament scene.

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Garion26



Joined: Nov 28, 2021

Post   Posted: Jul 29, 2022 - 00:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Again this seems really angsty about a theoretical issue.

Does anyone think they are generally at an advantage at -200 TV below the opponent? As far as I can tell no one has seen someone taking this approach generally.

I mean anyone with a team a moderate number of games under their belt could be doing it now. But no one seems to have seen someone doing it now.

Is anyone in this thread routinely offering matches to people +200-400 above them and winning more then the CR difference would suggest? (Obviously a high CR coach picking on a low CR coach with high TV is really a different story.)

I tend to prefer to offer matches to similar TV teams. Maybe I'm missing a trick but seems on gut level I'd rather avoid the 11 or so skills difference taking Griff would represent.


Last edited by Garion26 on Jul 29, 2022 - 00:09; edited 1 time in total
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 29, 2022 - 00:05 Reply with quote Back to top

i mean, i can't win ANYTHING in C (i've losed 16 CR so far... with orcs..) so i'm just a bad example. but yes, i like trying to 'pick' upwards as high as possible. inducements really are that good.
PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 29, 2022 - 00:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion26 wrote:

I tend to prefer to offer matches to similar TV teams. Maybe I'm missing a trick. But I'm curious Painstate and Nelphine are you taking trying to take advantage of this approach in C? What are your results.


Iam curious like you...I offer fair matches in C based on TV..Iam not trying to find teams +200TV over me and offer them matches so I can hire Zug or Griff.

Iam just baffled we are even discussing this in random one off matches in C. I do understand it could happen but is it normal....no way.

Now when it comes to how BB2020 the tournament scene has totally blown up the old "meta" Iam very curious how all this will play out in the Majors/Minors and XFL in C.

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Garion26



Joined: Nov 28, 2021

Post   Posted: Jul 29, 2022 - 01:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Misunderstood then your previous post! Thought you were suggesting that would be an optimized approach as I'm understanding Nelphine to believe.
ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 29, 2022 - 02:12 Reply with quote Back to top

I play C alot. The match maker / suggestion of matches is tied to TV so generally you're getting offers of playing +/- 150TV or so. There's no Morging going on unless someone has 250+k in treasury and blows it... and I have never seen it.

I generally offer and accept games around my TV. I have been caught out once with Morg/Hakflem Snotlings as the Gamefinder says all teams are at least 1000kTV. I accepted a game against Snotlings with a young team thinking I was just giving away 100k. Oh how wrong I was!

The team was 500kTV and I gave away 600k-ish in inducements and got absolutely smashed...

Here's the match... I was Vamps lol https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4392369
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 29, 2022 - 07:10 Reply with quote Back to top

@ClayInfinity - I think your match is the current equivalent of Amazons Vs Dwarfs. Do you think Undead/Necromancer/Dwarf/Chaos Dwarf would have had a better game? It may just be that coaches need to recognize that matchup is a bad one and not take it. Kind of like playing against underworld now. If you are not ready for it, you will get slapped around.

I have found that this theory is really difficult to test because my teams are so new I am not allowed to challenge teams more than 200tv higher or lower than me. I guess I need to pick a team and play more until I hit that magic threshold.

Also, if we ever get a scheduler, you will see fewer of the snotlings morging it up since they cannot control who their opponent is. On the picker side of things, people will figure out what is going on and not take matches against them unless they think they can handle it.
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