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Poll
Is BB20 really a problem?
Yes.
18%
 18%  [ 28 ]
I miss CLAWPOMB.
10%
 10%  [ 16 ]
Dwarfs still like it.
14%
 14%  [ 22 ]
Game should use 1d8 instead of 1d6.
9%
 9%  [ 15 ]
I've left fumbbl since the update and didn't even read this.
7%
 7%  [ 12 ]
Throw Team Mate is bugged.
3%
 3%  [ 5 ]
I will always find a way to minmax!
11%
 11%  [ 18 ]
Pie.
24%
 24%  [ 38 ]
Total Votes : 154


PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 27, 2022 - 20:57 Reply with quote Back to top

@matt

I will give you your props that yes, looking at your old B teams and your current C teams you obviously like sitting in that 1400-1600 TV range, I will give you that.

Where as My experience on FUMBBL playing a very finite # of teams over a large total # of games my teams seem to hover in the 2000-2200 TV range under the old R/B metric. That is the range I like to play.

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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 27, 2022 - 21:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
oh sure, but this is the thread where i get to say what i don't like. i don't like 1000tv starts! 1300tv for life! *flails*


Sir, please stop flailing around...you look ridiculous and most of us are now looking away like we dont know you.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 27, 2022 - 21:03 Reply with quote Back to top

*fires lightning bolt out of my fingers* flailing stops me from being ridiculous!
PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 27, 2022 - 21:04 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
*fires lightning bolt out of my fingers* flailing stops me from being ridiculous!


*Check Please*

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 27, 2022 - 21:07 Reply with quote Back to top

*hands over 300k gold*
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 27, 2022 - 21:14 Reply with quote Back to top

PainState wrote:
@matt

I will give you your props that yes, looking at your old B teams and your current C teams you obviously like sitting in that 1400-1600 TV range, I will give you that.

Where as My experience on FUMBBL playing a very finite # of teams over a large total # of games my teams seem to hover in the 2000-2200 TV range under the old R/B metric. That is the range I like to play.


I'll try to explain in another way, using the Box as example, so you can even see my teams and games to check I'm not lying.
I like to play balanced games (or reasonably balanced games) with some variety (that means, not TV 1000).
TV 1000 is considered a necessary evil when you start a team, and from a certain POV can be a fun experience to slog from TV 1000 to 1500-1600, enjoying the improvements of your players and the team (I played GW campaign games, such as WHFB, Necromunda, Gorkamorka, Warhammer Quest so I appreciate the "growing" aspect of an army, gang, mob, party).
But on the other hand, after you did it several times, it loses some of the fun. Personally I hate, for example, to think twice whenever I block with an unskilled lino because I could fail that block 1/9 due to lack of Block or Wrestle (I can play a turn by assessing block priority, but that doesn't avoid that I could fail a turn due to a 1/9 block I have to throw).
In the Box, to be back on track, I tried to play every team to the TV it was not playable anymore (for my standards).
Playable for me means: "That has at least 50% or more to win the game". I stopped playing at a certain TV if, after reaching it, that team started to lose games due to suffering excessive casualties or just because it was not competitive due to roster costs compared to the teams it faced.
So, while I could play, for example, Wood Elves at 1800 or 1900, Dwarfs were not as good as they were at low-mid TV due to facing Cpomb spam, so I stopped playing at high TV with Dwarfs (mind, without cycling the teams, I never cycled, I personally consider it a TV-MM format and tier exploit).
I played Norse and Orcs till TV 2000 (which is, for the Box, quite high, some Norse and Orc coaches played till 1500 TV or less then either cycled the team or dropped to 1300 due to losses).
So, I'm not averse to high TV, but I don't like to play a game where skills will play the most important role (thinking about clawmb or old cpomb).
I talk about the Box, where, if somebody monoactivated a killer team I could not avoid him and I would have wasted 1 hour watching my opponent playing a game where I was more a spectator than an opponent.
In Ranked it would have been different.
I hope it is clearer.

P.S. if you check my Box teams you will see that I have a Nurgle TV 2060 team, with the purpose to be paired with somebody monoactivating a similar killer team (I didn't monoactivate it).
A sort of "lightning rod" team vs monoactivators.
The rest of the teams is lower TV.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 27, 2022 - 21:48 Reply with quote Back to top

New ClawMB isn't so bad. Instead of 186/1296 to inflict a Casualty, it's 150/1296, vs AV9+ or better. Compare to MB alone, which is 84 vs AV10+, 130 vs 9+, and equal vs 8+ or better (186 at 8+). Claw alone, conversely, is 90 vs 8+ or better, and nothing is 36 vs 10+, 60 vs 9+, 90 vs 8+. So your MB Blitzer, who was getting 130 Cas instead of 60, is now getting 150, or about a 15% increase, representing about 28.7% of the gain you got from Mighty Blow. As such, Claw on a MB player has to be considered valuable largely in the context of AV10+ or better: vs AV9+, the addition of Claw does little.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 27, 2022 - 21:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes, BB2020 Clawmb is weaker indeed. The real problems about bash are AV 10+ Guard MB spam like in LRB4 and the Casualty table leaning towards SI and Dead (which makes the BH result less likely and thus the "tactical Apo" less useful).

edit. with "tactical Apo" I mean using the Apo to keep a BH or KO player in game.


Last edited by MattDakka on Jun 28, 2022 - 11:57; edited 1 time in total
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jun 27, 2022 - 21:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Going by Fumbbl Data page, most races still seem decent enough even at 1700-2000 in 2016 Box. Even 2000 to 2200tv looks as though it might be better balanced than BB2020. Twisted Evil

Though, people tend to not like the nasty beatings at high(ish). Wink

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Uber



Joined: Mar 22, 2004

Post   Posted: Jun 28, 2022 - 01:29 Reply with quote Back to top

The casualty table/apo changes are really bad.

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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 28, 2022 - 02:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Uber wrote:
The casualty table/apo changes are really bad.
Not really. 25% of all deaths and Badly Hurts from the d68 table are replaced with (mostly) niggles and (a little) MNGs, and Niggles are both minor and temporary. You're a lot more likely to suffer some kind of consequences, but the odds of a statloss are unchanged and the odds of dying have gone down.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 28, 2022 - 03:08 Reply with quote Back to top

For teams that care, increased mng is a huge change though.
ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Jun 28, 2022 - 04:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
For teams that care, increased mng is a huge change though.


I agree that MNG is more prevalent, but its offset by the Dedicated Fans cash flow model. Its why breakable (low AV) teams MUST have DF6. With high cash, you can cycle players if need be and keep a bench for most teams.

I find people who create a team with DF1 in a perpetual format like C Div really strange and perhaps not appreciating the importance of high DF.

In a league with shorter seasons (say 6-8 games) you can get away with 3-4DF on creation, but if you play a low AV team with low DF, then at some point, the higher injury rate will get you.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 28, 2022 - 04:39 Reply with quote Back to top

right, my concern is teams like lizardmen, who really suffer if they are missing a saurus; but they have no cash flow problems. you can't really justify firing a multi skill saurus just because they're mng, and that means you have more games where you are just.. weaker
tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 28, 2022 - 05:01 Reply with quote Back to top

You can Merc a missing Saurus, for not much more cost than just hiring a new one.

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