MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jun 19, 2022 - 23:28 |
 
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| Lyracian wrote: |
Cannoneer before Sure Hands? I like the set of skills but think I would pick Cannoneer last. |
Sure Hands is a 2+ and most of times will not fail, while a Long Bomb without Cannoneer is 5+.
You can use a rr to rr a pick up if required but if you need a reliable pass a rr will not give a +1 modifier.
Cannoneer gives a greater benefit, you can use the Leader rr if needed to rr the pick up.
With multiple rr Sure Hands is less important than in the past, because if you failed the pick up then you had to use a rr and with just 1 rr per turn the 1TTD or pass sequence would have greatly increased in difficulty. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Jun 19, 2022 - 23:48 |
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I'd argue that with the extreme tv management that elves must employ to stay competitive in a league, skill rerolls are more important because you will be pressed to keep your team rerolls as low as possible. As such, I'd go surehands first and cannoneer later. But both philosophies have their merits.
In our league our high-elf member took cannoneer first skill, and everytime he fails a pickup we mock him. It has become a bit of a running gag  |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Jun 20, 2022 - 02:27 |
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I randomly got Cannoneer on a Human Thrower, and let me tell you, it's hilarious. Saving up for a stat, hoping for PA. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jun 20, 2022 - 11:43 |
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With multiple rr I'm starting to think that 3 trrs + Leader rr could be the right number for Elves (I need to play some games to decide).
Sure Hands is situational, Leader on Thrower can be considered like the "Sure Hands" skill. If you fail the pick up you use the Leader rr, if you don't, good, you have a rr to use later. If you don't fail the pick up Sure Hands is basically useless. Ok, there is Strip Ball, but if you build a Thrower as dedicated Thrower he will lack Blodge, so he will probably be knocked down, no matter Strip Ball.
That said, I would take Sure Hands on a Thrower, but after Leader and Cannoneer (otherwise he's not a reliable enough Thrower).
Failing a pick up is often not as tragic as failing a crucial pass to score. |
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CrookfangRob
Joined: Jan 22, 2019
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Jun 20, 2022 - 13:03 |
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+MA is also very good for throwers, saves those GFIs. It's also cheap! |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jun 20, 2022 - 13:24 |
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Indeed. The only problem is that 18 SPPs are a lot. If you want a more useful Thrower as soon as possible it's better to take Primary skills.
The Season length is an important factor. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Jun 20, 2022 - 19:20 |
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Surehands is also extremely valuable on defense. You attack the cage, bust the ball open, and have a single golden opportunity to pick it up and take it away from your opponent. Usually that means the ball is in one or more tackle zones, and surehands helps a lot in saving rrs.
Cannoneer on the other hand only helps the team (in case of elves, at least) in making it even better at something it is already quite good at. |
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Malmir
Joined: May 20, 2008
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Jun 20, 2022 - 19:44 |
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| JanMattys wrote: | Surehands is also extremely valuable on defense. You attack the cage, bust the ball open, and have a single golden opportunity to pick it up and take it away from your opponent. Usually that means the ball is in one or more tackle zones, and surehands helps a lot in saving rrs.
Cannoneer on the other hand only helps the team (in case of elves, at least) in making it even better at something it is already quite good at. |
I'm taking cannoneer as first skill on my elven throwers at the moment (done Wood Elf and now High Elf) as when I sack it I often need to then launch it or they will get it back. Having sure hands doesn't improve the odds of pick up as I will burn a rr on that anyway if it is key (which it usually is) but it does improve my odds of launching it. Also helps with quick scores when oppo has kick etc. Having said that, my elves tend to run out of rr by turn two at the moment  Not sure what I would take next after cannoneer but probably dodge or sure hands. |
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Malmir
Joined: May 20, 2008
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Jun 20, 2022 - 20:17 |
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This also got me thinking about hidden benefits and needing to weigh those up when evaluating a skill's usefulness The obvious example is a wizard, where every turn I don't use it but you think I might and so adapt your position accordingly (e.g. having an extra man around the cage who could be doing something annoying somewhere else) is a gain I've made even though the wizard hasn't directly done anything. I think cannoneer might have something similar. Firstly it gives more options which keeps the opponent guessing. I might not launch that long pass, but knowing I'm decent odds if I do means you have to factor it in.
Let's imagine a hypothetical situation where you are trying to stall but it's getting risky. Do you score turn 7 and give me two turns. Never ideal against elves anyway, but no matter where you kick it I'm looking at a 3+ pass with rr to get it to someone with cannoneer (at worst). Maybe you decide it's worth the risky stall and I turn it over anyway and with elves there is still a decent chance I score too and go in 1-0 up rather than 1-1, which is the worst it could be had you scored. Just my thoughts, which brings me to this thread... |
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Java
Joined: Jan 27, 2018
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Jun 20, 2022 - 20:17 |
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I read withoout seeing who was writing the last post and was completely dumbfounded when I checked the author
Nothing makes sense anymore |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Jun 20, 2022 - 20:22 |
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| Malmir wrote: | This also got me thinking about hidden benefits and needing to weigh those up when evaluating a skill's usefulness The obvious example is a wizard, where every turn I don't use it but you think I might and so adapt your position accordingly (e.g. having an extra man around the cage who could be doing something annoying somewhere else) is a gain I've made even though the wizard hasn't directly done anything. I think cannoneer might have something similar. Firstly it gives more options which keeps the opponent guessing. I might not launch that long pass, but knowing I'm decent odds if I do means you have to factor it in.
Let's imagine a hypothetical situation where you are trying to stall but it's getting risky. Do you score turn 7 and give me two turns. Never ideal against elves anyway, but no matter where you kick it I'm looking at a 3+ pass with rr to get it to someone with cannoneer (at worst). Maybe you decide it's worth the risky stall and I turn it over anyway and with elves there is still a decent chance I score too and go in 1-0 up rather than 1-1, which is the worst it could be had you scored. Just my thoughts, which brings me to this thread... |
Crowd control and clock control are kings in this game, as I'm pretty sure you alread know lol. The same goes for skills like Frenzy. Just the fact that you have it, theoretically shrinks the field of your opponent from 24x15 to 22x13, which is huge in itself purely from a tactical point of view. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jun 20, 2022 - 20:32 |
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| JanMattys wrote: | | Surehands is also extremely valuable on defense. You attack the cage, bust the ball open, and have a single golden opportunity to pick it up and take it away from your opponent. |
Attacking cages? I do it, yes, but most of times it's not that successful, it's often a way to lose players and be outnumbered in 2nd Half, to be grinded 2-1. Ideally you should not have to attack a cage by having a one turner. You let the opponent score then 1TTD (which is easier if you have still a team). A classical bash team's cage with Guard spam is hard to attack with current Leap.
That said, since I can use multiple rr I can take Leader on Thrower (instead of Sure Hands) and rr that pick up. Did I manage to pick up the ball without using the Leader rr? Nice, then I can use that Leader rr for something else that turn, unlike Sure Hands, which is a specific action rr.
Sure Hands is indeed useful and nice to have on a Thrower, don't get me wrong, but I think that with multiple rr it has lost some importance, compared to old ruleset with 1 rr per turn. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Jun 20, 2022 - 21:29 |
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What does attack mean? I don't normally break cages with dodges or leaps, but I'm quite likely to deform the cage, or force the carrier to abandon it, after I lock out the play side and collapse the back side. That's attacking a cage too, just in a different manner. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Jun 20, 2022 - 21:30 |
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| JackassRampant wrote: | | What does attack mean? I don't normally break cages with dodges or leaps, but I'm quite likely to deform the cage, or force the carrier to abandon it, after I lock out the play side and collapse the back side. That's attacking a cage too, just in a different manner. |
This |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jun 20, 2022 - 23:02 |
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| JackassRampant wrote: | | What does attack mean? I don't normally break cages with dodges or leaps, but I'm quite likely to deform the cage, or force the carrier to abandon it, after I lock out the play side and collapse the back side. That's attacking a cage too, just in a different manner. |
Do you do that as Elves vs bash teams? If yes, I'm curious to see the replays where you do it. |
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