FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Jul 05, 2022 - 20:18

I think I would adopt the same approach in private league as well.
With a 50k Bomber I don't want to have bloating skills. Also, if I don't have useless skills it's more likely I can hire a Wizard for that important final game. If I can replace the Zombie, which is likely (they are cheap and they can even be raised) yes, I will happily fire him if he rolled a bad skill. I fired a Frenzy Zombie after the last game I played.
I consider every game a competitive one, by the way, no matter if it happens in Competitive or in a private league.

JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: Jul 05, 2022 - 20:36

I don't think you understand, or maybe I wasn't clear enough.
You said you will not roll skills in the end for linos and wait for the next season. You seem to imply that money flows enough to both cover your losses and to have enough to hire inducements if you're not the underdog. That seems a bit optimistic to me.
It's perfectly fine when you aim to keep an optimized team THROUGH seasons. But it's not an optimized approach to win one.

Why? Because when the playoffs come, you will realize that sure, your opponents have a zombie with shadowing, which is 10k useless tv, and you don't because you fired him. But on the other hand they also have 40k gold more than you do.
And in an environment where nobody keeps money "for the future", but all go all in, you will be the poorest of the lot.

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MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Jul 05, 2022 - 21:00

If I can't replace the Zombie I don't randomize the skill on him, so I don't lose 40k gold because I keep him unskilled. (edit. I talk about mid-Season here, not end Season).
It's simple.
First, I check if I have enough gold to replace a player, then I risk to randomize the skill.
If I don't have enough gold I don't roll the skill.
Am I missing something? Honest question.

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Nelphine

Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Posted: Jul 05, 2022 - 21:10

i think JanMattys is arguing that you never have enough gold to replace any player, because all of the gold should go towards inducements.

which i think is perfectly viable, in which case, MattDakka says just don't skill the zombie, until the end of the season/playoffs, where you random him, in case he gets something worth keeping (block for 10k is worth it; guard for 20k is also worth it); and if you don't get something worth keeping, or you simply can't redraft him regardless, then you don't keep him through redraft.

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Jul 05, 2022 - 21:17

Well, I wouldn't spend all the gold on Inducements, for the simple reason I could need it to replace players (talking about private league).
In the final game I could, but mid-Season I don't think so. I think I would try to keep some gold in the Treasury to replace players, especially the positionals.
If it's too much generic, feel free to be more specific:
my race, game # in the Season, Treasury, next opponent's race are important variables to know for a more accurate answer.
For example, if I have 300k or more in the Treasury I tend to spend it. If I have 150k I could risk a single random roll on a Zombie because I could replace him and still have 110k.
With 40k in the Treasury I would not risk to randomize the skill on the Zombie, because, statistically speaking, the odds of taking the G skills I want are low.

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JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: Jul 05, 2022 - 21:23

MattDakka wrote:

if I have enough gold to replace a player

That's what you're missing, yeah. In a league where there's a single big prize at the end you never have "enough" gold, because you could need to replace a mummy and a wight next game, or you just want to hoard it in order to fire inducements at your opponent. Firing a player to rebuy it is, in my opinion, *always* worse than both options (save for bad times or save for playoff inducements).

You could say "well, ok then, I will never skill linos no matter how many ssps they get". but this way you will miss on some luck, or skill them only when it's too late (i.e. when they can choose block). And due to the nature of cheap linos, they will live much less than the average player. So you risk having a 4 spps zombie who dies before putting those 4 spps to use. That's a waste too.

I think rolling randoms is fine, but firing them is not. Just put them on LoS duty and the problem will kinda take care of itself. It's not those 10k that make or break your team. But those extra 40k? might well do, when it's time to throw hands.

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MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Jul 05, 2022 - 21:25

I don't want to put them on LOS for the simple reason that I'm putting on LOS more TV than I should and because I'm giving Inducements to my opponent with the bad skills the Linemen have got.
I prefer to fire them BEFORE playing the next game so they don't give any extra TV to my opponent.
I mean, you don't have to be black or white, there is a in-between way.

It's not just: "never skill the Linemen till Season end" or: "always take the skill as soon as possible".
I do often the in-between thing, that means, if a Lineman has 3 SPPs AND I can replace him immediately I randomize the skill, otherwise I just wait.
Mind, this on just 1 or 2 Linemen (it's Treasury-dependant, the more gold I have, the more Linemen I can risk to randomize the skills on).
Also, I consider the overall blocking reliability of the team, I explain (thinking about Elves):
if I already have 3-4 Linemen with Block/Wrestle AND I have enough Treasury to replace the Linemen I'm going to randomize the skills on, then I try 1-2 random rolls.
If I have no Linemen with Block/Wrestle then I wait till 6 SPPs to pick Block/Wrestle on 2-3 of them.
I can be lucky and roll Block/Wrestle with random skills, but, considering the average, it's not something I can rely on as long-term strategy.

PainState

Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Posted: Jul 05, 2022 - 21:40

JanMattys wrote:

Matt is incapable of understanding unoptimized fun.

Mattdrivemeinsane wrote:

Competitive division the wacky fun it's not a driving force behind my roster choices. The fun coming from winning is the driving force

These two quotes hit me like a lead pipe. This is how I play Blood Bowl. I love unoptimized fun, fluff, back story, making stupid Ogre legends..Yet, I do want to win, now maybe that is not my #1 goal compared to having fun but I do want to make a competitive roster. I think I fall in the middle ground on this one.

Based on the last two pages it looks like to me the discussion has certainly fallen into the I like the new edition because now I can certainly "game" redraft and "game" skill ups. Is that good or bad? Which forum should this vein of conversation fall in?

Coaches will always "pick" and "scheduler" coaches will always "game" the system. There is no system possible on FUMBBL to stop this. "we" need to stop being fixated on it.

Fine, lets keep talking about it.

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PainState

Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Posted: Jul 05, 2022 - 21:47

One thing I do like about a redraft is that as a big fan of the old Majors system coaches will no longer be able to "stash" their pimped out team and only bring them out when it is time for a major. They will have to redraft and if they want to "pimp" the team out they will have to play them in open [C] play. I think that levels the playing field in majors and gives other coaches a possible shot at taking a major title.

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PainState

Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Posted: Jul 05, 2022 - 21:54

I would also like to state that I like the new version because I like rolling double skull on T8 to deny my score...rolling triple 1 just brings back fond memories...Iam glad none of this has changed.

Iam confident that Spiro would think this is the best edition ever.

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JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: Jul 05, 2022 - 21:55

I have always been weird. I love random stuff. I loved ageing, for example. Sue me Very Happy

I must say that, not being bothered by the recursive tv trim, the work they did on permanent leagues was excellent. The major flaw of permanent leagues in the past had always been that there were powerhouses and newcomers, and that the inducements / spiralling expenses systems weren't really able to create a semi-levelled field, a necessity for maintaining the fun for everyone.

BB2020 solved almost 100% of those problems with a much stronger and reworked inducements system, and the hard redraft. For leagues (and in my weird opinion) they did a damn fine job. It could use some fine tuning, but a damn fine job nonetheless.

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Rawlf

Joined: Jul 15, 2007

Posted: Jul 05, 2022 - 22:02

JanMattys wrote:

Firing a player to rebuy it is, in my opinion, *always* worse than both options (save for bad times or save for playoff inducements).

That is not necessarily true. Say you have a zombie that can get a random skill and there are 6 matches to go in the season. If you get the skill, you are getting a 10k inducement disadvantage for 6 games. So firing and rehiring for 40k could be better. But only if the random skill does almost nothing for you. For random general skills, that will hardly ever be the case, maybe your third kick or something.

This ony works for leagues though. In TV matched games, the skill logic is turned upside down.

PainState

Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Posted: Jul 05, 2022 - 22:09

@jan

I hear what you are saying and I agree with a lot of it. My main issue is that MY #1 focus on FUMBBL is C play. A open sand box uncapped, all coaches are a part of the C league. Then we reduce the entire FUMBBL C div, which all coaches are actually apart of and reduce it with a new set of rules acting like it is a table top league of 10 coaches who play 8 games in 4 months.

That is what the redraft and rule set on leagues is about..A very small table top league who plays a very small amount of games and we redraft because half the league quit and we need 4 new coaches to play with us. So we make some rules to hard limit the die hard coaches to a small TV range so the new guys can make new teams and not feel like they are over matched. Granted in a long running league, like on FUMBBL, new teams are most likely to be over matched badly in League play under the old system, inless the comish put some type of restrictor plate in place.

Open C play is infinte and not finite like league. You can jam 200 games on one team in 3 months if you like, who is stopping you? Why stop them? They seem to be enjoying themeselves.

Now, even in C play we want to make a level playing field, as close as we can get, like League play. So, Iam fine with season play in C and redraft. It does limit the DIV when it comes to tournament play, the closest thing we get to League play in C. Iam still going with the party line of 1350 TV redraft...even though my gut says to make that base reset around 1500 or 1750.

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JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: Jul 05, 2022 - 22:48

Rawlf wrote:

In TV matched games, the skill logic is turned upside down.

Oh, I 100% agree on that. I was just poiting out that bb2020 is evidently written with leagues in mind, and that our beloved open play is not what the ruleset was designed to do. So when judging the ruleset, one should try and keep that in mind.

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JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: Jul 05, 2022 - 22:52

PainState wrote:

@jan

I hear what you are saying and I agree with a lot of it. My main issue is that MY #1 focus on FUMBBL is C play. A open sand box uncapped, all coaches are a part of the C league. Then we reduce the entire FUMBBL C div, which all coaches are actually apart of and reduce it with a new set of rules acting like it is a table top league of 10 coaches who play 8 games in 4 months.

That is what the redraft and rule set on leagues is about..A very small table top league who plays a very small amount of games and we redraft because half the league quit and we need 4 new coaches to play with us. So we make some rules to hard limit the die hard coaches to a small TV range so the new guys can make new teams and not feel like they are over matched. Granted in a long running league, like on FUMBBL, new teams are most likely to be over matched badly in League play under the old system, inless the comish put some type of restrictor plate in place.

Open C play is infinte and not finite like league. You can jam 200 games on one team in 3 months if you like, who is stopping you? Why stop them? They seem to be enjoying themeselves.

Now, even in C play we want to make a level playing field, as close as we can get, like League play. So, Iam fine with season play in C and redraft. It does limit the DIV when it comes to tournament play, the closest thing we get to League play in C. Iam still going with the party line of 1350 TV redraft...even though my gut says to make that base reset around 1500 or 1750.

I mostly agree. The problem is, this is the ruleset we got. And this ruleset was (imho) written with leagues in mind, and (imho) SPECIFICALLY to address old league problems. Just an example: getting rid of FF and its huge impact on many kickoff table results. Old teams in a league would have a much higher FF and that would have a very strong impact in games against newcomers.

So we either keep our setting, and use a bad ruleset for it, or we change our setting to something that works better with the ruleset we have, which incidentally would make it rather good.

Both approaches have flaws and both approaches have merits.

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