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JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 13, 2022 - 21:37 Reply with quote Back to top

Punting is a valid tactic and also cooler than most. If you don't want punts you should protect the ball better.
I really don't get the point of "not only should you never want to do a punt, you shouldn't be able either".

To each his own I guess. But that's a total first for me, never heard that PoV before.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 13, 2022 - 21:41 Reply with quote Back to top

nah, i'm fine with punts. i just don't want punts from players that are clearly not ball handlers - which means (for me) no lino's as a start. i don't mind giving everyone (like zombies) 6+ PA just so they can try, because for a decent punt that just means its mostly going to be wildly inaccurate. but i'm very happy that you can't realistically punt with most players anymore.

if you want to punt, have a ball handler ready to do so.
ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 14, 2022 - 03:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Re Zombies and other bad humanoids who should be able to mechanically hurl a ball. Would a PA of 7+ be appropriate. i.e. NEVER accurate, even on a 6 but you could at least move the ball. Kinda breaks the golden rule of 6 always succeeds tho
Carthage



Joined: Mar 18, 2021

Post   Posted: Jul 14, 2022 - 05:33 Reply with quote Back to top

My biggest 2 gripes with the game:
Several star players are overtuned for their cost still. They should be *more* expensive than if you 'create-a-player' not less.
Wildly inaccurate pass are a dumb rule. At worst it should use the throw in template and the passer gets to select which endzone or sideline they are targeting and use that template there. HMP is functionally useless now and punting is dead.
Carthage



Joined: Mar 18, 2021

Post   Posted: Jul 14, 2022 - 05:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Oh and apothecaries suck now. 50k TV for a reroll of an injury that has a 6/16 of keeping them in the game?
Maybe its balanced more towards tourney or championship play so you burn it on the first BH or KO, but it so bad to use it in leagues to try to protect a star player.
Hoping to see Apo get a buff in a FAQ. Maybe something like it can be used once a game to add a -1 to the injury result.
Other than that, I like a majority of the changes, even the ones I didn't like at first like the leap nerfs.
My number 1 addition is hands down jumping over downed players. Opens up the field a lot more than I thought it would.
MerryZ



Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Post   Posted: Jul 14, 2022 - 08:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Only bad thing about 2020 ruleset is Slann genocide ;(

Wildly inaccurate is a bit silly too.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jul 14, 2022 - 12:06 Reply with quote Back to top

ClayInfinity wrote:
Re Zombies and other bad humanoids who should be able to mechanically hurl a ball. Would a PA of 7+ be appropriate. i.e. NEVER accurate, even on a 6 but you could at least move the ball. Kinda breaks the golden rule of 6 always succeeds tho


This kinda stuff is part of why I cannot find the enthusiasm to move over.

Even moving to a D8 would be better than this.

Did people really cry because a zombie threw a long bomb to another zombie for the last turn score?

I would rather play vs the people who would laugh.

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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 14, 2022 - 15:55 Reply with quote Back to top

1) Wildly Inaccurate, with the ball, should be on a modified 0 or less.

2) There should be a skill called Punt, which allows passes to empty squares that are never wildly inaccurate but always result in a turnover, even if caught.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 14, 2022 - 16:32 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:


2) There should be a skill called Punt, which allows passes to empty squares that are never wildly inaccurate but always result in a turnover, even if caught.

Kick skill could do that as extra effect, it would make sense imho.
That way Kick would be improved and having 2 Kick players (for example because they randomized the skills) would create less redundancy.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 14, 2022 - 16:54 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
JackassRampant wrote:


2) There should be a skill called Punt, which allows passes to empty squares that are never wildly inaccurate but always result in a turnover, even if caught.

Kick skill could do that as extra effect, it would make sense imho.
That way Kick would be improved and having 2 Kick players (for example because they randomized the skills) would create less redundancy.


1) Kick is already a "good" skill for many players who take random G skills. We should be upgrading or replacing bad skills in bad categories, not upgrading good skills in good categories.

2) P skills are mostly horrid. Punt as a P skill would let us combine Cloud Burster back into Safe Throw, turning two terrible, fire-the-player skills into one marginal skill that you might hold onto, and giving us room for one more mediocre skill (Punt), effectively upgrading the worst two skills in a bad category from awful to marginal, without going crazy or anything.

3) Punt, v2. Use this skill if your pass would be Wildly Inaccurate to get +2 on your pass roll. Note that if you use this skill, you have already tested for accuracy, and the Punt bonus cannot result in an accurate pass; it can only turn a wild throw into an inaccurate one.

3.1) Punt, v3. Use this skill if your pass would be Wildly Inaccurate. Instead of the ball deviating from the passer's square, it deviates from the target square.

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Last edited by JackassRampant on Jul 14, 2022 - 17:05; edited 1 time in total
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 14, 2022 - 17:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Imho Kick is not as good as you say because it doesn't make the High Kick event's consequent catch hard enough.
It's absolutely silly to take Kick to aim to a zone of the pitch and having High Kick countering it for free.

If we want to use a P skill to punt away the ball, then Hail Mary Pass should be improved to achieve that, imho.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 14, 2022 - 17:12 Reply with quote Back to top

High Kick is just a nerf to the power of Kick. Kick is often decisive in late drives, and a High Kick means you have one more thing to game around. Also note that a High Kick can put the receiver into a bad place if that's where the ball goes, like way back deep when facing a speed team. Sure you can catch the ball (if so lucky) and zip up to a better position, but it'll take you two turns or a pass, handoff, or Fumblerooskie to get the ball to the line.

A kick can go bad in lots of worse ways, even with Kick. It may scatter downfield diagonally and end up in an easy to snag location or even bounce onto the intended carrier (or see a Quick Snap move the carrier under the ball). A "good" coffin corner kick and a gust of wind (gust of wind is more likely than high kick) can generate a touchback, even if you put it 4 squares in.

I don't mind so much nerfing good skills, so long as after the smoke clears they're still worth having. I do mind the buffing of good skills, especially those in categories with lots of good picks already. I also think passing skills should be P skills, and that P as a skill category massively needs love.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 14, 2022 - 17:35 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
High Kick is just a nerf to the power of Kick. Kick is often decisive in late drives, and a High Kick means you have one more thing to game around. Also note that a High Kick can put the receiver into a bad place if that's where the ball goes, like way back deep when facing a speed team. Sure you can catch the ball (if so lucky) and zip up to a better position, but it'll take you two turns or a pass, handoff, or Fumblerooskie to get the ball to the line.

TTM and 1TTD require just 1 turn. High Kick makes taking Kick almost useless. I still take Kick, but, when High Kick happens, the skill is nigh on useless.
Without multiple rr would be harder, but with multiple rr + High Kick TTM TDs are way easier.
Kick should give -1 to catch the ball. It's a skill used just once or twice per game, it should be more effective.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 14, 2022 - 19:04 Reply with quote Back to top

Vs. any but the fastest TTM teams, High Kick won't save you from a coffin corner. Right Stuff players usually are MA6 or less. It will save you on a chainpush OTS, maybe, if your Thrower is slow and/or inaccurate.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 14, 2022 - 19:25 Reply with quote Back to top

If for coffin corner you mean kicking close to an End Zone's corner well, then even if you aim at 4 squares you still risk a touchback.
If you aim to the middle of the opponent's half zone then Kick is a help for the opponent.
As you said, there is not just High Kick, but Changing Weather too making Kick not so good.
High Kick is bad because helps to place a player, even if slow, under the ball, Changing Weather because, if you aimed either deep into the opponent's half or close to a boundary line could generate a touchback.
So, it would be nice if Kick at least added a -1 to High Kick's catch to make High Kick a bit weaker.
Kick would not be too good, just a bit better, which would not be bad for such a situational skill.
No need to be a super fast team such as Skaven, just a team with TTM will be enough to exploit High Kick event.
I know it because I witnessed it several times.
Black Orcs, Underworld, Chaos Renegades, Orcs, Goblins, Snotlings, OWA, just to name some races.
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