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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 07, 2022 - 19:50 Reply with quote Back to top

So in that other discussion it veered into a subtle, yet important aspect of re-draft, Agent Fees.

Iam well aware that redraft is not enabled yet, so this is a good time to discuss it.

Now lets discuss this and get a better understanding of the system and how it will effect re-draft when it is finally let loose from its cage.

Now let me state up front, iam not the master of the BB2020 rule book, nor am I a all seeing and knowing wise man who can tell you that once the kraken is unleashed he likes to destroy stuff. I WARNED YOU!

As a proud member on FUMBBL as being a comish of a League. One of the things is you get to see the inner workings of FUMBBL, the nuts and bolts so to speak. So lets discuss Agent fees and how they work. Maybe become more enlightened, smarter and able to craft a argument with facts on why Agent fees are good/bad or the usual thing found around here, who gives a rats fart.

Now this discussion, at least for this post in centered 100% around the C division. League play, well they run their own kingdoms and do what ever they want, so for them this is just for information only.

Agent Fees
There are three things that determine this on FUMBBL.

#1 Base Line Agent fee: this allows the comish (that means christer for C) if he feels like it, put in a value of 10K and bam! every player is now forever 10K more expensive. I dont see this ever happening in C play but it is there for L play options.

#2 Cumulative Gold per season Agent Fee: The default setting is 20K per season, per the holy book of NUFFLE that was translated by some dude at GW HQ and now calls it BB2020 rules.

#3 Zero Cumulative fee seasons: Now this is the big one. This is what determines when #2 starts kicking in.

So, lets set the base line. 1350 TV redraft 15 game season, got it? good.

(spoiler alert there is more coming at a later date on that above sentence but we will parce it out into little bits we can chew on later.)

So lets go back to #3 Zero Cumulative fee seasons: Now this is how it works.

Each player is allowed to play 15 games and they are docked one season of play. When they hit 30 games they have played two seasons and you quessed it....45 games they have played 3 seasons. Every one still with me? So on and so forth into infinite seasons.

NOW

IF the comish sets the Zero cumulative fee seasons at a 1. That means every player can play one full season, 15 games they are not hit by agent fees. At the end of their season Two they are now taking on agent fees.

Now, this is where it can get confusing. Agent fees apply to players and not teams. So you could have a team on season 5 but only have 4 players who are going on season #3 because they have played 45 games or more before redraft.

Seasons
1: The player takes on agent fees once he hits 30+ games at redraft.
2: The player takes on agent fees once he hits 45+ games at redraft
3: The player takes on...yep you are following me now at 60+ games.
4+ just keep adding it up.

So, if C div is set at lets say 1. Every player on your team that hits 30 games+, at their next redraft they will start taking on agent fees...they are cumulative. So in that example a player who hits 45 games now is 40k more expensive.

If you set it at 0, I have no clue what happens, but if one of Christer's servers starts smoking, I will blame you. (maybe if it set to 0 once the player hits 15+ games he takes on agent fees.)

So that is how it works and for you wizards of the rule book who are wondering why PainState took them back to kindergarden of BB2020 rules...well, my gut tells me a lot of coaches dont actually know what the heck Iam talking about.

What is your point, i know this allready

Well, now "the rat farts" actually know how it works. So, if we want to have a discussion if this is good or bad at least we know the actual rules.

IMO the zero cumulative fee seasons should be set at 2 or 3. More than 3 is to long and setting it at 1 basically makes every team redraft with a rookie team + 2 or 3 players with some skills.

The best example is a crazy scenario but makes the point. You have a team that is going onto season #3, zero season was set at a 1, before you play game 31, you redraft.

lets say you have 12 players, keep math simple. Some how you bribed NUFFLE and all twelve of them played in 30 games and you did not suffer one KILLED or MNG on any player. Well then all 12 of your players now cost 20k more. So your player cost before skills went up 240K of your redraft budget.

(and they say ageing is a bygone concept of a corrupt CRP universe.

Carry on. Laughing )

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Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Jul 07, 2022 - 21:18 Reply with quote Back to top

or maybe we cold just stick at zero "Zero Cumulative fee seasons" until we actually see it in operation? I have no idea why this is not just called "Cumulative FREE seasons"?


PainState wrote:

(and they say ageing is a bygone concept of a corrupt CRP universe.

From what I recall players got injuries with aging? This way you get to select which players live and die it is not down to a random dice roll.

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Lyracian.
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 07, 2022 - 21:29 Reply with quote Back to top

PainState wrote:
If you set it at 0, I have no clue what happens, but if one of Christer's servers starts smoking, I will blame you. (maybe if it set to 0 once the player hits 15+ games he takes on agent fees.)


That's exactly what happens. In our league, only the first season has "per the rulebook" prices. When the second one starts, you can confirm players with a +20k cost.

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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 07, 2022 - 22:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Lyracian wrote:
or maybe we cold just stick at zero "Zero Cumulative fee seasons" until we actually see it in operation? I have no idea why this is not just called "Cumulative FREE seasons"?


Well TT players who play with seasons know all about agent fees and from the limited feed back offered TT leagues don't care. They either ignore seasons or they are re-drafting rookie teams so this is all a mute point.


That is why this is important concept to talk about in the C division which is a open sand box with over 500 coaches playing. It has never been scene how that works in our unique enviromemt.

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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 07, 2022 - 22:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:

From what I recall players got injuries with aging? This way you get to select which players live and die it is not down to a random dice roll.


They did get perm damage. Won't relive the past and go over it.

The point some are making is that aging under crp was a soft way of making you think about retiring a player. You age and take a perm that had no effect basically on your player, so you ignored it. Oh crap my 1 ag tree just aged into a -1 ag,as an example. Also remember rolling for aging was only done when that player skilled up. Your tree fails aging and takes -st..yeah he better be something special or he is fired BUT you did not have to fire your st5 tree, it was up to you.

BB2020 has now made a system that is not soft and kinda of pushing you to retire players....it is hard and in your face. Great for a league like Jan is in, not so great for C open play on FUMBBL.IMO

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Samaranthae



Joined: Aug 30, 2006

Post   Posted: Jul 08, 2022 - 02:54 Reply with quote Back to top

C will do what the rulebook says. So theres almost no point in talking about it.

Do i think its good design- NO
Does it make certain teams almost unviable to play- Yes
Does it feel like your being punished for NOT rolling a new team or playing a team which is competetive right out of the box- Absolutely

As you said its gone from a very soft and eventual. your players may take a hit but probably wont (that if you're lucky enough to get all 6 skills without getting an ageing roll then you never have to worry about again) to a very hard in your face TIME TO RETIRE.

I get that we want the legends with rediculous stats and all the skills to retire after a while when we get sick of trying to kill them. But theyre actually the last that will be let go, its the zombie with 1 skill that will never play a second season. Especially when that skill has been randomised and didnt get what the coach wanted.

It has been raised that the interplay with the new skill acquisition makes redrafting and agent fees a must. And i wont tee off on how unearned stat increases feel now. But also we did that to ourselves with degenerate min/max behaviour so...

Bottom line its easier now to build monsters, mainly TD monsters. And it is important that they are not permanent fixtures.

So yeah. I think agent fees are bad design. I also dont think you have a choice but to implement them. HOWEVER if you are running a league i would think about how long your season is. Maybe you want to have the agent fees kick in every second season if youre only playing 7 game seasons. Maybe some way of tieing the agent fees to the amount of increases a player has. I dont know how much ability a commish has on fumbbl.
Someone was talking about the NFL and i had a fun thought experiment thinking about contracting your players for a certain number of seasons but for different amounts of agent fees (but it got silly so dont do that)
But traditionally when GW makes a new rule for bloodbowl, its up to the community to fix it.
PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 08, 2022 - 03:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Well I acknowledge that redraft will happen in C, it is inevitable. The point of this is to think about this stuff so when christer does pull the trigger he can feel confident that the parameters he sets are good for C. If he sets it up with agent fees after first season and 3 months later coaches in C are complaining, well to late a guys you had your chance to convince Christer other wise.

The only rule that I can ever remember on this site getting changed in the old r/b was cmbpo. It took almost two years to get a change but everyone in B R and even L where bitching and moaning.

That ain't going
to happen with agent fees and # of free seasons. No one outside of C even cares and then I suspect half of C does not care because they play most of their games in L.

We do have some C data on this if you care to look. Just look at the team list in C and start checking out teams. You will see how agent fees will and do effect the teams in a big way.

I will throw out some example tomorrow or over the weekend.

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Foad



Joined: Sep 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 08, 2022 - 06:37 Reply with quote Back to top

The issue is that GW is watching.

Any other game company would look at what the consumers are saying and take it on board, but we are dealing with a set of designers who are so insecure that any feedback given on a bad rule is taken as a personal attack on their capacity to design a game and is followed with a doubling down, with a FAQ that makes the bad rule worse.

What people don't realise is the BB2020 is designed to make 40k and AoS more attractive.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jul 08, 2022 - 09:37 Reply with quote Back to top

PainState wrote:
Well I acknowledge that redraft will happen in C, it is inevitable. The point of this is to think about this stuff so when christer does pull the trigger he can feel confident that the parameters he sets are good for C. If he sets it up with agent fees after first season and 3 months later coaches in C are complaining, well to late a guys you had your chance to convince Christer other wise.


It has been thought about. People have had their say.

People will continue to moan about it but there is not really any reason to expect the plan to change.

It was pretty obvious that some people wouldn't like it. That has been factored in already.

An occasional moan may have some therapeutic benefits though. Wink

PainState wrote:

The only rule that I can ever remember on this site getting changed in the old r/b was cmbpo. It took almost two years to get a change but everyone in B R and even L where bitching and moaning.


I don't recall it being changed in R/B. We got some extra options in L.
I believe that Christer admitted to considering changing it, but I expect that the "Officialists" screamed blue murder until he saw the error of his ways. Mr. Green

Edit:Though, the cap is 1350, not the 1300 in the rulebook. Maybe there is hope. Twisted Evil

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 08, 2022 - 11:49 Reply with quote Back to top

PainState wrote:

The only rule that I can ever remember on this site getting changed in the old r/b was cmbpo. It took almost two years to get a change but everyone in B R and even L where bitching and moaning.


This didn't get changed. It stayed fully powerful until 2016 edition launched, at which point C changed it in line with the new rules.

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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 08, 2022 - 14:07 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:


It has been thought about. People have had their say.



Well then Iam glad I brought this up. Because of what AD said in his post all of the concerns Christer has about the C div and issues of the past he wanted corrected. WEll, BAM! solved with redraft. I wont parce the post from AD you have to do some leg work on your own and acutally click the link and read it.

The three aspects of redraft are: TV base redraft (problem soleved, all teams will redraft at a 1350 TV base to keep the TV range band lower), Season length (Problem solved, now with a 15 game season length, that doubles down on keep the TV overall in the C div lower AND it prevents uber pimped out teams sitting on the shelf waiting for a tournament. Now we come to Agent fees.

Agent fees..do not effect TV, they do not effect season length. It effects two things at the heart of the C div. Players.

#1 Agent fees effect your redraft budget which in turn will eat away at your ability to keep players with skills.

#2 Agent fees penalize teams who have players who skill up really slow. You know the teams, the usually suspects, Chaos, Lizards so on and so forth. Those players will be hardest hit.

The best aspect of C teams is the team development side of the game. Agent fees eats away at that.

Take a team that is built at a 950 TV, like a human team. That is the base redraft of the team. You are allways redrafting to the base of 950. 11 players, 2 rerolls and 1 apoth. So at a 1350 TV redraft you can now keep 400 TV of skills on your players IF you redraft back down to your base team of 11 players. Now this is not as cut and dry as that because of player deaths, injuries and so forth.

Agent fees make it harder for player building. The first two aspects of Team redraft have the TV bloat and so forth already covered.

So, if you play a human team that at redraft you cut the roster back down to the base of the team and now you can spend 400TV on players themselves(new) or keep older players with skills BUT with agent fees it cuts into that 400TV. So if you have 4 players taking on fees, well that is 80TV to cover that and now you have 320TV to play with.

As the seasons roll forward that will really retard slow growing teams. Which is bad in an open sand box that is designed for team building. The desire to play those teams gets lower and lower.

If the agent fees is set at just 1. Players dont take on agent fees until game 30+, Problem solved in my mind. You have enough games now for player development, sand box your skill ups on your team and it has no effect what so ever on the TV of the team.

Agent fees are bad at Zero Cumulative fee seasons in C because it strikes right at the heart of what makes C team building fun.

Set the CFS at a 1 and now you have solved the problem. All the other issues AD raised where already solved by redraft and base TV of 1350.

Slow developing teams now have the time necessary to build up a core of skilled players and all the other teams can spread their skills out more on players. Having a team of skilled players is fun, lets not forget that. At the same time we can solve the TV issue, matchmaking and all the other issues related to Majors found in C.

Have a nice day....Iam off on vacation to the beach.

CYA

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Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Jul 08, 2022 - 14:14 Reply with quote Back to top

PainState wrote:
The point some are making is that aging under crp was a soft way of making you think about retiring a player. You age and take a perm that had no effect basically on your player, so you ignored it.
The point was with aging you had no control over if the player was effectively 'dead' due to a stat bust. Redraft may be more in your face but you have a choice as to which players you cull. If you like Bob the Zombie you can keep him on your team.

PainState wrote:
BB2020 has now made a system that is not soft and kinda of pushing you to retire players....it is hard and in your face. Great for a league like Jan is in, not so great for C open play on FUMBBL.IMO

Can you expand on why it is not so great? From what I recall the average team in B/R did not play more than a dozen games. I do not recall where the stats came from now.

If the majority of C players follow they are not going to play many games with a single team. Therefore resetting after 12 or 15 games is not going to have a large impact on the majority of people playing.

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Lyracian.
PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 08, 2022 - 14:34 Reply with quote Back to top

@lyrcian

Read my last post, those are my thoughts on agent fees and my reasoning.

BTW you are right that the majority of coaches who do play in C do not have teams with 30+ games and have multiple of them. The coaches that do and there are a lot of them play in C as their main div and just dabble or ignore L play.

So this discussion on agent fees is directed 100% at coaches who play in C as ther main div of play.

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Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Jul 08, 2022 - 20:38 Reply with quote Back to top

PainState wrote:
@lyrcian
Read my last post, those are my thoughts on agent fees and my reasoning.
I read your post; I just did not find it really gave much in the way of an answer.

PainState wrote:
So this discussion on agent fees is directed 100% at coaches who play in C as ther main div of play.
I do not play C as there is no redraft so I guess you are not interested in my input on the subject? Once we have redraft and Black Box I expect it will be 90% of where I play but it will probably be too late for discussions then...

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Nuffle wills it.

Lyracian.
PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 08, 2022 - 20:50 Reply with quote Back to top

@Lyracian

Agent fees eat away at your redraft budget.
Let's say there where no agent fees and just redraft to 1350 TV and 15 game season.

My human team at every redraft will cull the roster to our base of.
Ogre
4 blitzes
Catcher
5 lino
2 re-rolls
Apothecary

Now I have 400 TV worth of skills to redraft my team.

I can spend that TV in skills, keeping old players or using it draft new player or using it on re-rolls

IF I'm having to pay agent fees on multiple players it cuts into my redraft budget of 400tv.

Thus I can't team build at all. I just horde spp on the blitzes, pay the agent fees and play with 4 blitzes and a bunch of rookies. This is not unique to the human team, all teams deal with it.

That is what redeaft does..it drags your team to its base level and then we start another 15 game sprint to see who is the best? Nope, let's redraft back to base and start another sprint of 15 games.

At least with tournament play there is some hope of resolution to the mouse wheel. Make your 15 game sprint, wait for a tournament to play in and then start over once you are knocked out of the tournament, then redraft and get them next time.

I just want player development on team building to be a part of this whole process.

Thus if the agent fee is set at 1 or 30+ games before redraft kicks in ALL teams can develop a core of players to play with.

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Last edited by PainState on Jul 08, 2022 - 21:02; edited 1 time in total
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