MerryZ
Joined: Nov 28, 2005
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 Posted:
Aug 22, 2022 - 13:45 |
 
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I was just referring to my older post thats its easier to get favourable match in box than in finder, if that is what you are looking for.
Not that surprised that you thought I was referring to yourself. |
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Kaptain Awasoam, Dicer of All Men and Women and Children and Puppies. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Aug 22, 2022 - 13:47 |
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Anyway, the point stands.  |
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Chrisdekok
Joined: Aug 09, 2021
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Aug 22, 2022 - 13:48 |
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Elves seem to be a rare sight in the box. I have now played 51 matches and 2 of them was against elves.
For me personally the tiers are not the most important for my success rate but what kind of play style I can handle.
I haven't learned to play dash yet but hope to do so.
I remember when playing 3rd edition as a kid that wood elves were one of the most hated teams but now they are in the 1 point group, what happened? |
Last edited by Chrisdekok on %b %22, %2022 - %13:%Aug; edited 1 time in total |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Aug 22, 2022 - 13:51 |
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| Chrisdekok wrote: | Elves seem to be a rare sight in the box. I have now played 51 matches and 2 of them was against elves.
I remember when playing 3rd edition as a kid that wood elves where one of the most hated teams but now they are in the 1 point group, what happened? |
Elves (of any kind) have been seriously nerfed by BB2020 rules.
- Leap is weaker;
- Passing is harder;
- MA is capped at 9 (so, harder 1TTD);
- AG is capped at 5 (so, harder dodges through overlapping tackle zones);
- Elven Blitzers have no S access: they didn't have it in previous rulesets either but at least passing, Leap, MA and AG were stronger. So, Elves just got nerfs without any boost.
A useful BB2020 rule change is multiple rr per turn but, since even opponent teams can do that, it's not such a big thing. It helps a bit to 1TTD but helps Orcs and other teams to TTM as well.
Break Tackle could be considered a little help but it requires a double and, as Chosen, it costs 40 TV, like +AG. So, not such a big thing.
Wood Elves have been hit by Leap nerf, Catchers' nerf (no Sprint by default) and overall passing nerf.
Stat boosts are harder to achieve, in this sense: you can get them automatically by spending 18 SPPs, but your player needs to survive to get them. In old rules you could roll a lucky +stat boost at 6 SPPs and have a good player in few games. Now it's impossible to have a stat boost in 6 SPPs, not to mention random MVP, which makes harder to focus the positionals and harder vanity passes to farm SPPs. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %22, %2022 - %14:%Aug; edited 3 times in total |
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Chrisdekok
Joined: Aug 09, 2021
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Aug 22, 2022 - 14:01 |
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So in the 2016 rules were wood elves one of the best teams? |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Aug 22, 2022 - 14:04 |
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For sure one of the best teams at any TV. They were good at low, mid and high TV (well, until they dropped due to Casualties  ).
Now they look like a tier 2 team. 
They are playable*, but for sure weaker than in old ruleset for the reasons I wrote above.
*"playable" in my book means: "with a potential win rate 50% or higher assuming coaches of equal skill and average dice".
Wood Elves have a better win rate than 50%, for the record. I just wanted to explain what I mean with the word "playable" generally speaking. |
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MerryZ
Joined: Nov 28, 2005
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Aug 22, 2022 - 14:18 |
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"with a potential win rate 50% or higher assuming coaches of equal skill and average dice".
Just curious, but from where and how do you count that ? |
_________________
Kaptain Awasoam, Dicer of All Men and Women and Children and Puppies. |
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Chrisdekok
Joined: Aug 09, 2021
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Aug 22, 2022 - 14:19 |
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Thanks for your answers Matt.
I'm a bit interested in blood bowl history from playing the game in my youth but have missed out on all editions between 3rd and current one. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Aug 22, 2022 - 14:23 |
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| MerryZ wrote: | "with a potential win rate 50% or higher assuming coaches of equal skill and average dice".
Just curious, but from where and how do you count that ? |
It's a theoric definition by/from myself.
In my book a team with lower than 50% win rate is not a playable team. I mean, you can play it (so, in this sense it's playable) but you already know you will struggle to win from start.
I count the win rate by checking the win rate of a certain team I play. Common statistics, you know.
Also, I can guess quite accurately if a roster is good or bad just by checking the roster without playing it at all. For example, I knew that Imperial Nobility was a fail roster before actually playing it just by checking it (and I was right, as I discovered by playing it ).
@Chrisdekok: Cheers! |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %22, %2022 - %14:%Aug; edited 3 times in total |
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MerryZ
Joined: Nov 28, 2005
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Aug 22, 2022 - 14:28 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | MerryZ wrote: | "with a potential win rate 50% or higher assuming coaches of equal skill and average dice".
Just curious, but from where and how do you count that ? |
It's a theoric definition by/from myself.
In my book a team with lower than 50% win rate is not a playable team. I mean, you can play it (so, in this sense it's playable) but you already know you will struggle to win from start.
I count the win rate by checking the win rate of a certain team I play. Common statistics, you know.
@Chrisdekok: Cheers! |
But where do you check those winrates ? |
_________________
Kaptain Awasoam, Dicer of All Men and Women and Children and Puppies. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Aug 22, 2022 - 14:29 |
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The games I play, I check those. If you check every roster page of my teams you will see I keep track of their win rate.
Also, I check top coaches and see how they perform with a certain race, so, not just myself (and no, I don't think to be the best one, this is why I watch top coaches when they play in the Box).
I consider the cycling factor too, so, playing Orcs (insert whatever race) at TV 1000 for 3 games and stopping to play a new Orc team it's different from playing Orcs never cycling them.
That said, if you consider the points I wrote about BB2020 impact on Elven teams + Season Re-Draft, you don't need to play games to understand that Elves have been nerfed.
Even without Season Re-Draft they are weaker, let alone when it will be implemented.
They will hardly manage to keep a one turner for more than 30 games, I guess, due to Season Re-Draft.
As an aside, I'm wondering about how many rrs Elven teams should have now. I thought 2 + Leader but I'm starting to think 3 rr + Leader (to make up for lack of skills due to Season Re-Draft striking) and because, with multiple rr, they could benefit from pushing the dice in the last 1-2 turns of a drive. |
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MerryZ
Joined: Nov 28, 2005
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Aug 22, 2022 - 14:55 |
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Dont top coaches have over 50% winrate with all teams ? So thats not really good way to look statistics, no ?
And how do you check this cycling issue (and what issue is that anyway, dont tier1 teams usually scale up pretty well ?) ?
And I didnt ask anything about elves did I ? Tho I do think they are worse now, but needing a oneturner to win with elves is more a "learn to play" issue than elf issue.
But this is derailing away from orginal thread, again. |
_________________
Kaptain Awasoam, Dicer of All Men and Women and Children and Puppies. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Aug 22, 2022 - 15:02 |
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I think that some top coaches could have less than 50% with tier 3 teams.
Anyway, if a good coach has less than 50% win rate with a race (after a certain number of games played) I'm sure that that race sucks, I do that.
It's a quick way to know if a team is good or bad.
About the cycling: I know the cycling coaches, it's easy, whenever I look at the games they are playing they are using a new team of the same race at low TV, freshly created.
Ok, then just ignore the part about Elves. The one turner is not needed to win but it's an anti-stalling measure (easy stalling and too long halves are BB flaws). So, not needed to win, but he helps a lot. A bit like having a killer on a bash team. Not necessary to win, but he helps a lot.
Feel free to play Elves without a one turner, compare your win rate to Elves of the same kind with a one turner, you will find out that.
@Chrisdekok: I send you a PM about your last post so we don't derail the thread furthermore. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %22, %2022 - %15:%Aug; edited 2 times in total |
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Chrisdekok
Joined: Aug 09, 2021
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Aug 22, 2022 - 15:05 |
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This is getting more off topic but I guess it's ok unless we get banned 
It seems you both agree that CR is largely a measure of how much tier 1 bash you play.
I agree that CR often doesn't seem to be the whole truth about coaching ability. My current CR is higher than many coaches that
I know I would have a very hard time to beat with equal teams.
Couldn't the formula for CR be improved to take into account the relative strength of the rosters? For example if goblins beat dwarfs or vampires beat amazon's or whatever the CR transfer would be larger than in a mirror match. Doesn't this site have enough data to do that correctly? |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Aug 22, 2022 - 15:14 |
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the short answer is no; for instance, in 2016, if you had very developed vampires, they were no longer a bad team (debog is the clear example here).
however, many teams had noticeable changes in win rates based on the tv they played at. so if you played Team A against Team B at 1000tv, team A might be the clear favourite, but if you played the same team at 1800tv, team B might be the clear favourite.
because of that (as well as other more complicated reasonings), CR doesn't take roster into account.
2020 does not have enough data yet, period. it has preliminary data, so you can make educated guesses, but its extremely limited, both in tv that is played, as well as not having redraft, as well as the environment that was available |
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