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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 31, 2022 - 15:35 Reply with quote Back to top

nah, your definition of 'fair' is simply not particularly useful. when i look at the CR coaches, your name has a star next to it - 'only accepts match-ups that benefit him'. You're as bad as the people whom you despise.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 31, 2022 - 15:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Since I'm not playing on GF anymore you can just delete my name from that list.
I could say the same of you, offering games with Orcs without Apo to non-bashy teams (which need the Apo due to low AV, short bench and expensive positionals), but I don't play on GF, so it's not a problem.
Everybody sees the world from his own perspective.
If you are so good just activate in the Box, maybe we could play a match.
Too many good coaches talking on forums, too few playing in the Box.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 31, 2022 - 16:16 Reply with quote Back to top

i do activate in box.. but my usual play times are around 0300-0600. hard to find opponents.
MerryZ



Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 31, 2022 - 16:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Many also play on Trophy so maybe your TV and games are just too high ?

Why many have to get on that level when easier solution would be for you to play lower TV ?

Or not an option that is accepted ?

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 31, 2022 - 16:33 Reply with quote Back to top

i hate low tv. anything under 1300 isn't worth playing.

edit: in particular, starting team rosters are too varied, and there aren't enough skills. so, many teams, simply don't have any safe plays. this results in the games simply being 'who is forced to make, and fail, a blockless block or a 3+ dodge, first'.

position is important, but only in that you know you are going to fail something, so you have to cover that. worrying about your opponent is a secondary concern.

i much prefer games where most of the easy ways to fail are covered, and you focus on your opponent - stopping them from doing things, removing key players so that you can convert them back into a 'likely to fail' team, or forcing outlandish (and therefore amusing) plays with a high chance of failure. But that means both sides need to have all of the basics covered, and have 1 (or more) outstanding players who can do those crazy things.

Wood elves out of the box actually do qualify for this style of game play, but the opposition out of the box doesn't. And both teams need to be able to do it, not just one.

Stars also qualify some teams for this, but I prefer homegrown players (knowing full well that isn't the meta in 2020).


Last edited by Nelphine on Aug 31, 2022 - 16:43; edited 2 times in total
MerryZ



Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 31, 2022 - 16:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
i hate low tv. anything under 1300 isn't worth playing.


But proppabeleh you find oppos thru tinder ?

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Kaptain Awasoam, Dicer of All Men and Women and Children and Puppies.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 31, 2022 - 17:02 Reply with quote Back to top

@Nelphine: well written, you expressed exactly what I think about low TV games.
I do hate too relying on not failing a 3+ pick up because I lack Sure Hands on a ball carrier or failing a 2d block because I don't have yet Block or failing a 2+ dodge and lacking the skill/rr.
Positioning is important and can act as "safety net" but even if you play well you could fail a simple roll that a bit more developed player would not fail.
Not saying we must play with super freaks, but with the core skills for that player (be him a ball carrier, blitzer, blocker etc.).

I agree about Star Players too: I mean, a thing is being underdog (or young team which has not developed yet his own players) and hiring a Star Player, another thing is having a team which hire Star Players as strategy game after game. I think that part of the appeal of BB is developing your team and players with your personal touch (otherwise the teams will all look the same or very similar).
Just my own personal opinion and my particular perspective, not saying people should not play low TV games. I consider low TV the "necessary evil" to develop a team (which can be enjoyable, under certain aspects), so you can appreciate more its improvement when it gets better, but not a TV where to play most of games.
I just played a 1700 TV game where I tied but I had fun anyway due to the skills involved. Developed teams are more different, and that for me is a fun factor (while high TV with Cpomb spam was not enjoyable). Now, I find high TV quite fun and not as stupid as in the former 2 rulesets (oh my Nuffle, I'm not complaining about something, shock!). Maybe, if stat boosts were capped at max +1 per characteristic (in order to reduce the power of freaks) Season Re-Draft could not be necessary. Clawmb has been toned down too.

P.S. another reason I don't like low TV is because I could get ambushed by a very low TV Snotling or Ogre team hiring Star Players. By playing mid-high TV teams I don't get paired with them, at least in theory.


Nelphine wrote:
i do activate in box.. but my usual play times are around 0300-0600. hard to find opponents.

If your play times are those, well, then you should not complain about me not playing with you. I'm offline in that time range. Very Happy
PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 31, 2022 - 18:12
FUMBBL Staff
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It's an interesting perspective. And one less often heard from.

The 'majority'(one can never be sure) seem to feel the opposite. that developed TV BB is all about who rolls the 1 first, where as more limited teams need to be coached better, and have the risks mitigated better.

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I am a barbarian here because i am not understood by anyone
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 31, 2022 - 18:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Developed TV is vague. We should talk about low TV, mid TV, high TV, then we should be more accurate and talk about a match-up at a specific TV.
For example, TV 1000 Amazons vs TV 1000 Dwarfs is not a fair match-up, despite the low TV.
At TV 1000 you can mitigate the risks, sure, but if you play as Chaos vs Norse you are going, statistically speaking, to struggle more when blocking due to lack of Block.
Therefore, not all the teams are able to mitigate the risks in the same way/level, due to their starting roster's weaknesses, which some development can reduce.
That, of course, doesn't mean that super high TV BB is the best one. Some development is nice, too much can break the game. Without cpomb (or clawmb 2016) the high TV (1700-1800, to be more accurate), as far as I experienced, is less broken than it used to be, though.
Burtblahblahblah



Joined: Aug 18, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 31, 2022 - 18:31 Reply with quote Back to top

I think BB shines in NAF-style events. 5-10 skills so you can have sure hands / block reliability. Ideally no star players, or severe restrictions. It's probably the most balanced it is going to be.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 31, 2022 - 18:37 Reply with quote Back to top

PurpleChest wrote:
It's an interesting perspective. And one less often heard from.

The 'majority'(one can never be sure) seem to feel the opposite. that developed TV BB is all about who rolls the 1 first, where as more limited teams need to be coached better, and have the risks mitigated better.


right, super bad rolls can certainly cause major problems at high tv, but that's why i say its a change in focus.

at low tv, the entire game is about mitigating risk, and your opponent is secondary - you aren't trying to do things to your opponent, you're trying to avoid failing, and hoping your opponent fails so you can take advantage.

at medium tv, this changes - you are trying to force your opponent to fail, because you can rely on basic actions working - you focus on your opponent. and so yes, the person who spectacularly fails, often is the one who loses. but at the same time, my last game i rolled 5 double skulls, and my opponent rolled 2 double skulls, and i won 1-0. simply failing doesn't mean losing - you still have to control when and where to fail, but you can do a lot more before that happens, and you can take an active part in making your opponent fail.

it does mean that spectacular fails tend to stand out way more, because there are far fewer simple fails, and i fully understand that a lot of people don't like this. but i'd rather worry about a single spectacular fail, rather than spend the whole game worrying about whether i should even attempt a 2d block with my strength 4 player.



i also completely agree with you that the majority do seem to enjoy lower tv, and for a wide variety of reasons.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 31, 2022 - 19:03 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm amazed by how much I agree with Nelphine about this topic, he seems to read my mind.
Especially this part: "it does mean that spectacular fails tend to stand out way more, because there are far fewer simple fails, and i fully understand that a lot of people don't like this. but i'd rather worry about a single spectacular fail, rather than spend the whole game worrying about whether i should even attempt a 2d block with my strength 4 player. "
Exactly. I can know the proper sequence of 2d blocks (or even how to maximize 3d blocks), yet without Block I can't reduce that to less than 1/9 or 1/27, no matter how much I think or try to minimize it. Blocking is a basic action for most teams and you should not worry a lot about doing it due to lack of skills. Elves can play with few blocks here and there, but they still risk when dodging.
You can minimize risks as much as you can, but you will have to do some basic actions to play the drive, such as blocking and picking up. The skills help to perform the basic actions your players are supposed to do. You should focus about the overall positioning and tactic rather than performing basic actions.
The multiple rr helps the team lacking core skills, but starting teams generally don't have more than 3 rrs, so they can't rr many actions.
And, even with some core skills you still have to think about what you do. Games are not super easy just because you got some Block and Guard and other core skills (assuming you play vs a similar skilled coach and team).

About majority liking low TV now: I remember, when BB2020 rules were announced, lots of FUMBBL people complaining about not being able to play at high TV. Very Happy Maybe they changed their mind.


Last edited by MattDakka on Aug 31, 2022 - 19:32; edited 3 times in total
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 31, 2022 - 19:12 Reply with quote Back to top

PurpleChest wrote:
It's an interesting perspective. And one less often heard from.

The 'majority'(one can never be sure) seem to feel the opposite. that developed TV BB is all about who rolls the 1 first, where as more limited teams need to be coached better, and have the risks mitigated better.


There's a whole lot of grass between 1300 and 2000.

I prefer 1600-2200.

I'd have thought that 1500-1800 was "best". That's in the old money.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 31, 2022 - 19:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Probably the ideal TV range boils down to overall league (insert the environment you fancy, private or perpetual, NAF etc.) composition.
If you play a high AV bash team you are fine at least till 1800. If you play Elves it's harder to get and stay there.
Undead are fine till 1500 TV, roughly. So, I think it's hard to know the "ideal TV" without knowing all the teams playing in an environment.
Chaos Dwarfs are good at low-mid TV, 1500 or lower, roughly (they scale worse now because Claw is weaker and harder to get and it's harder as well to develop a Bull Centaur ball carrier).
With Orcs and Dwarfs, so far, I managed to play till TV 1800-1700 without issues. Matches were balanced, never easy wins or easy losses or hopeless since start.
1900 or higher, I have not played matches at that TV yet, so, no anecdotal data about it.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 31, 2022 - 19:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Environments matter for sure. In the old Box most teams were fairly decent at 1500-1800. Undead were 52.6.

they were still 50.27 at 1700-1800.

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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Stars - Anniversary Bowl - Teams of Stars - 13th March
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