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MerryZ



Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 06, 2022 - 10:24 Reply with quote Back to top

But if you just want to move and hypno you dont use it instead of block or blitz.

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Kaptain Awasoam, Dicer of All Men and Women and Children and Puppies.
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 06, 2022 - 10:30 Reply with quote Back to top

MerryZ wrote:
But if you just want to move and hypno you dont use it instead of block or blitz.


Yup I get it now.

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MerryZ



Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 06, 2022 - 10:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Yar, but its still good

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Kaptain Awasoam, Dicer of All Men and Women and Children and Puppies.
Alien_the_Alien



Joined: Apr 22, 2020

Post   Posted: Sep 06, 2022 - 13:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Last time I checked, vampires on FUMBBL's Competitive were at a 37.61% winrate (lowest of all teams) ; in NAF tournaments for 2022 they are at 46.2% (from 46.8% in 2021 and 45% in 2020). They are currently better than Halflings, Black Orcs, Ogres, Nurgle, Goblins and Chaos.
There also a 45.5% WR stat in league but it counts teams that use the old Blood Lust with the new Hypno.

Of course it doesn't tell the full story, and some people can be good with vampires like with any team and have a higher WR.

In my very anecdotal experience, I'd say it's all or nothing in league - if you have a nice start and manage to grab some skills, they can be great. If you don't, it'll be suffering for an entire season. In tournaments it's easier to make something with the team, especially under a generous ruleset.

I think we have enough evidence to say that vampires remain playable, even if they are one of the worst teams in the game. They'll likely be reworked in some way or another anyway.

It's hard to tell whether they are better or worse than they used to be though. FUMBBL stats seem to indicate that they are worse, but NAF stats say they are a bit better.
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 06, 2022 - 14:58 Reply with quote Back to top

My guess is that Fumbbl stats are a bit flawed in the sense that many inexperienced coaches try them (because, frankly, vampires are cool). I know I did. My first two teams ever on fumbbl were humans and vampires.

It is also unlikely to see a very inexperienced coach in a NAF live event, and even more unlikely to see him coaching vampires. Because, at some point, he would likely have a friend and fellow coach look him in the eyes and say "dude, no".

Also, as already stated, progression hurts vampires quite a bit, and fumbbl is almost all about progression. In a resurrection environment like NAF, I think there is little doubt that Vamps 2020 are better than Vamps 2016, though.

Bloodlust was really bad. Like, really really bad.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 06, 2022 - 17:34 Reply with quote Back to top

JanMattys wrote:
My guess is that Fumbbl stats are a bit flawed in the sense that many inexperienced coaches try them (because, frankly, vampires are cool). I know I did. My first two teams ever on fumbbl were humans and vampires.


That is not "flawed". Wink
You always have to consider the environment.

Is NAF data much use outside of NAF?

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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Stars - Anniversary Bowl - Teams of Stars - 13th March
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 06, 2022 - 17:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Maybe there should be a dedicated thread about Vampires in NAF format.
NAF resurrection with starting skills and no permanent injuries is a very different format from progression league, especially with such a race (one thing is being able to start with skills on Vampires, another thing is hoping to get the random MVP on them in order to get the skills and survive from a game to the next one).
I guess Ohwatch meant to talk about Vampires in a progression environment.
And, for what it's worth, I still have not seen the feats made by kingvan with his old ruleset Vampires in the Vampire games I watched with BB2020 rules.
It was really fun to watch him playing New Vamps on the Blood: https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=751375 and, thanks to development, that team had lot of character and coolness.
Now Vampire teams don't and won't look that special anymore, due to lack of Vampires' development.
We can debate about BB2020 Vampire roster's performance, but imho and from my particular perspective they are less fun to play and watch compared to old ruleset.
MerryZ



Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 06, 2022 - 18:16 Reply with quote Back to top

2020 rules vamps do good. Ask storr or elyod

And i want to prove em wrong/right

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Kaptain Awasoam, Dicer of All Men and Women and Children and Puppies.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 06, 2022 - 18:18 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't see so many Vampire games played by them in Competitive, 10 games played in total, but ok.
https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=coaches&order=&d=2&r=5146
It's for sure like you said.
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 06, 2022 - 18:59 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
JanMattys wrote:
My guess is that Fumbbl stats are a bit flawed in the sense that many inexperienced coaches try them (because, frankly, vampires are cool). I know I did. My first two teams ever on fumbbl were humans and vampires.


That is not "flawed". Wink
You always have to consider the environment.

Is NAF data much use outside of NAF?


It wasn't meant as an insult. But if we are trying to evaluate something as ephemeral as the theoretical prowess of a roster, I'd say that an enviroment where the roster might be attractive and at the same time fatally unforgiving to new coaches could provide flawed data (given the stated goal).

Not that it matters much. I also think that only truly dedicated coaches would take Vamps to a NAF tournament, so in a way NAF data might be flawed in the other direction, which is to say, those who take them more often than not are above average coaches.

Maybe it's projection, but I consider myself a -just above- average coach and I would never take Vampires to a three-days event with the reasonable expectation of taking home a 2/2/5 record Smile
If I were much better, maybe as a challenge. If I were at peace with the idea of losing all games, maybe because my vamps minis are awesome. But as it is, no thanks Smile

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 06, 2022 - 20:15 Reply with quote Back to top

I didn't take it as an insult. After all, it's not my data. Wink

But it is just data. It tells you what happened. Though of course people can draw flawed conclusions from that. Wink

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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Stars - Anniversary Bowl - Teams of Stars - 13th March
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 06, 2022 - 20:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Point Taken

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Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2022 - 10:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Maybe there should be a dedicated thread about Vampires for people that don't play Vampires.


When http://fumbbldata.azurewebsites.net/stats.html is back up and running, we can try to compare TV brackets results from the old ruleset with the new.


I suspect that the higher winrate of CRP/BB16 vamps is skewed by the higher TV teams, which currently do not seem to exist in [C] division.


Vampires appear to be weighted down by a certain amount of coaches having a taste of the team without prior experience or knowledge of the team, which tends to be catastrophic.


JanMattys has made many good points. Animal Savagery is much more manageable in game than on paper, as many coaches have shown and somebody tried to explain a couple years ago ( Razz )


Here's some of those coaches
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?op=view&team_id=1083182
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?op=view&showmatches=1&team_id=1065338
https://fumbbl.com/~Mazylis
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=1041427

Storr and Elyod have already been referenced but this list is a good start too https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=coaches&order=&d=2&r=5146 (a list which is, incidentally, full of 0/0/1 records, for what it's worth)
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2022 - 11:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Java wrote:

When http://fumbbldata.azurewebsites.net/stats.html is back up and running, we can try to compare TV brackets results from the old ruleset with the new.


Unfortunately, that could be quite some time. Sad

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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Stars - Anniversary Bowl - Teams of Stars - 13th March
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2022 - 12:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Java wrote:
Maybe there should be a dedicated thread about Vampires for people that don't play Vampires.

That could be a nice idea.
That said, I'd like to see the various Vampire coaches' match records only from game played in the Box, to remove the picking factor from the data.
https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=coaches&order=&d=2&r=5146
I guess is not possible, though, due to hybrid Competitive division.
As an aside, I checked the team of the top Vampire coach, it has just 1 Vampire.
Found that funny. A Vampire team with 1 Vampire. It should be a Thrall team. Razz
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