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MerryZ



Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2022 - 12:21 Reply with quote Back to top

I think doing good in RRR is worth more than doing good in box

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Kaptain Awasoam, Dicer of All Men and Women and Children and Puppies.
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2022 - 12:23 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
That said, I'd like to see the various Vampire coaches' match records only from game played in the Box, to remove the picking factor from the data.


Stop implying over and over that those who don't play box are pickers. That is both false and dismissive.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2022 - 12:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Then we should have rankings with data from RRR.
Well, when I will be defeated over and over again by Vampire teams in the Box I will think they are good.
I can't even find them, people have not discovered yet their power, I guess.
Good for me! Very Happy
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2022 - 12:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Or you could coach vampires in the box. So we know you are good, and we can have reliable data about them played by a top coach.
You even had a long running winning vampire team in the old box, so we would even have some benchmark to compare bb2020 with.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2022 - 12:32 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm not going to play a weak race in Competitive division because the CR formula doesn't take into account that.
Moreover, I'm not going to play a team needing some development with Season Re-Draft incoming, sooner or later. Losing is frustrating, but not having fun when playing is even worse, not to mention the massive CR drop. With old Vampires the simple fact of developing them was rewarding despite the defeats. Now there is no development as reward if you lose.
To be honest, I was bad with old Vampires, but they were fun to play due to some development (for example, I had a Thrower Vampire). kingvan was very good (I miss his Vampire gameplay and team). We should summon him! Smile
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2022 - 13:31 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
Java wrote:

When http://fumbbldata.azurewebsites.net/stats.html is back up and running, we can try to compare TV brackets results from the old ruleset with the new.


Unfortunately, that could be quite some time. Sad


That's really unfortunate. Let us know if there's anything we can do to help. Snacks, bribes, etc Wink

Facts are really nice to use when discussing BB, much much better than unfounded and self-aggrandizing walls of text.
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2022 - 13:31 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
I'm not going to play a weak race in Competitive division because the CR formula doesn't take into account that.

It definitely does, but ok.

It's a pity. You had a pretty cool winning record with old vamps, and enough games (237) to consider the record "statistically meaningful". Having the same coach with new vamps would have been a cool way to rank them. Same coach, same environment... you could play 230ish games with the new ones, and there could have been some cool conclusions to be drawn about the "old vs new vamps" topic.

Ah well.

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Last edited by JanMattys on Sep 07, 2022 - 13:33; edited 1 time in total
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2022 - 13:32 Reply with quote Back to top

MerryZ wrote:
I think doing good in RRR is worth more than doing good in box


I don't. I think that if we're going to call a race good or bad we should look at multiple environments.

JanMattys wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
That said, I'd like to see the various Vampire coaches' match records only from game played in the Box, to remove the picking factor from the data.


Stop implying over and over that those who don't play box are pickers. That is both false and dismissive.


Ranked & Box did tend to give different results. Maybe not by much generally, but still different.

Can't prove it now though. Sad

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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Stars - Anniversary Bowl - Teams of Stars - 13th March
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2022 - 13:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Different? Sure.
What I don't like is Matt's -repeated ad nauseam- idea that the only competitive way to play bb is the box. Because the box is as flawed and as picky as the rest of them, if you know how to sweetspot and choose the right races.

It doesn't mean that Open Ranked doesn't have flaws, mind you. To be honest, after having tried all kinds of environments, if I had (back to the wall) to pick a single one that could be described as "competitive" I'd definitely choose Leagues. Over open, over box, and over NAF resurrection style.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2022 - 13:43 Reply with quote Back to top

JanMattys wrote:

It's a pity. You had a pretty cool winning record with old vamps, and enough games (237) to consider the record "statistically meaningful".

Not fakely acting humble, but my record was not that good. It could have been better, but on the other hand I tried some weird tactics, like deep stalling with Vampires, that could be a reason. Another reason was that I'm more risk-averse than kingvan, I watched lots of his games and replays and I noticed that he pushed dice a lot, made lot of GFIs, 3+ dodges and stuff like that. It's not a surprise, Vampires are high risk-high reward, but he did that to max level.
I use kingvan as example because I think he was awesome with old Vampires and because he played them in the Box.
JanMattys wrote:

you could play 230ish games with the new ones, and there could have been some cool conclusions to be drawn about the "old vs new vamps" topic.

Same coach, yes, same environment, not exactly, because now the Box is not "pure" anymore. Same race, the roster has been changed a bit, but it's not that the real difference. The real difference is Season Re-Draft, random MVP and different level up system. In old ruleset I could nominate the Vampires only, reducing the number of games required to develop some of them. Now the MVP likely ends wasted on Thralls. In the lucky scenario I can develop some Vampires, Season Re-Draft happens. Yes, I could play them before Season Re-Draft, but I'm not interested in playing a team that, sooner or later, will be trimmed down by the Re-Draft. Every team faces Re-Draft, but not every team must play hard games just to develop players to be properly played. If I have to play team I want, if not super performance, at least some "fun-factor". Not asking to have 6 Legend Vampires, but 4-5 with Blodge and 2-3 of them with Pro helps to have some fun, in my book. Moreover, with old level up you could be lucky and get +AG on a Rookie Vampire and use him as pseudo-Thrower. With BB2020 level up system and passing, forget that.



About competitiveness of private leagues: I can agree with that, but it's not possible to play games whenever I want in a private league.
So, due to practical reasons, I play in the Box, which, as flawed as it can be, it's still the best way to find a quick and quite balanced game.
At least, no coach can pick/refuse games there, and this is a great balance factor, in the long run.
With GF I could not find games at all (unless I accepted to be always at a disadvantage/play vs bad coaches), so... better a random blind MM system.


Last edited by MattDakka on Sep 07, 2022 - 13:51; edited 4 times in total
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2022 - 13:46 Reply with quote Back to top

I already said "Ah well."
You are in the top position to actually find out something we all theorize about. You don't feel like it? As I said, ah well.

As for the competitive debate: I dont care one bit why you play in the box. You already stated a zillion times that you do, and why you do.
I'd just be happier if you stopped crapping on everything else just to elevate your preferred habits to "the only worthy way to play".

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2022 - 13:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Java wrote:
koadah wrote:
Java wrote:

When http://fumbbldata.azurewebsites.net/stats.html is back up and running, we can try to compare TV brackets results from the old ruleset with the new.


Unfortunately, that could be quite some time. Sad


That's really unfortunate. Let us know if there's anything we can do to help. Snacks, bribes, etc Wink

Facts are really nice to use when discussing BB, much much better than unfounded and self-aggrandizing walls of text.


Beer often helps. Smile

A "scheduler" flag on the json match api would be cool to separate [C] division matches.

Show your support for The Flag! Smile

It is nice to have some numbers to look at. But they are environment specific. [C] doesn't really have that many games yet.
And as they say, "There are lies, damned lies..." Twisted Evil

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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Stars - Anniversary Bowl - Teams of Stars - 13th March
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2022 - 13:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Not the only worthy but the way to play one-off games which has fewer chances to be polluted by external picking factor, thus skewing the rankings/data.
It could be more accurate (for example, with 2 Box sub-divisions pairing closely-skilled coaches), but to do that the userbase should be way larger.
Another thing could be giving a "versatility bonus", so, if you play 1 team per race you get a bonus.
Really, I'm not talking with the Box fanatic elitist hat on now, but the Box, considering the size of userbase, does a good work.
It's not perfect but I really think it's the best way to arrange rated games.
I have no issue with GF as long as it's used to play unranked games.
MerryZ



Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2022 - 14:05 Reply with quote Back to top

There is versatility bonus in box now.

Some play it to score points on.

And why so much GF hate when you use it too ?

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Kaptain Awasoam, Dicer of All Men and Women and Children and Puppies.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2022 - 14:11 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:

I have no issue with GF as long as it's used to play unranked games.


You don't have to take away ranking from GF. You can just add a "Pure Box" rating.

Arguing for taking people's stuff away is part of what Ps them off. Wink

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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Stars - Anniversary Bowl - Teams of Stars - 13th March
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