33 coaches online • Server time: 01:58
Forum Chat
Log in
Recent Forum Topics goto Post Secret League Old Wo...goto Post Creating a custom to...goto Post ramchop takes on the...
SearchSearch 
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 22, 2022 - 23:43 Reply with quote Back to top

From an entirely in-universe RPG perspective, that the rules of this site in C div, most leagues, and the game in general specifically support, my teams want to win.

My Goblins are bad at it, but they still want to win (and murder you all, and foul everything), and it's extra fun to win with Goblins because they are bad at it, and if you don't win, there's often some compensation in killing stuff with stunties. And then some games they're just terrible and made of sadness, but perhaps not quite as much as halflings.

--

This whole thing of bloodbowl being random and chaotic is just nonsense. It's not. The dice are just a good excuse for losing, I use it myself when I don't play well. The best coaches on here do still dice me quite consistently, always keeping my CR below 170, mysteriously.

I like to think I'm slowly getting to the point where I dice some of them now and then too. Maybe even get multiple games in a row with dice good enough. But man, you gotta position well, eh, and really think about that clock control, and pick the right inducements, otherwise their dice will just be on fire. In a surprisingly consistent fashion.

Like happygrue and his incredible luck with near-rookie Ogres in the FC. And also his incredible luck in the leagues where he gets silly teams to the top and wins anyway. And also he's super good at positioning and clock control and exploiting the tiniest of chances and that is why all that luck floats his way.

Puplechest even wrote a good blog about it. This game isn't really all that random, because of the way attackers only need to fail a few things, and defenders only need to succeed at a few things. Someone recently reminded me, here maybe, where when you start to get good, defence gets easier, because it is when there's little gaps here and there.

--

And like, of course you win 2-1, that describes most possible outcomes that were not tied games. Like, you score in 5 and turn them over for 2-0 half time and then just slow them down a bit so they can't pressure you for the tie.

Or they turned you over first half and rolled you for 2-0 but you got a T16 TTM for 2-1.

Or you turned them over first half twice and had not much team left, but they couldn't get the pressure on quick enough and 2-1 was all they could manage as you corner-stalled the last receive with 2 players.

There's a lot of very different games end up 2-1.

_________________
ImageImage
Mnemon



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2022 - 00:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
This whole thing of bloodbowl being random and chaotic is just nonsense.


It's everywhere in the rules, how the stick and the game is presented. It's the spirit of how it is designed - what was intended. LOOK at how GW markets and designs it.

If the intent were not that the rules would not be that heavily designed about dice rolls.

Why can't you see that the choices of how you play make the game something. The game isn't all that random if you make it efficient; if you push your tao into it.

You don't need to explain the virtues of a 2-1 win for me. I know about it. I could play like that more if I wanted to - but I don't. As I find it as dull as dishwater water.

I have fun doing the mathematically improbable, knowing full well that it is improbable. And I still intend to win - just not in a pre-prescribed "best" way. My flings want to win, too - but they do it by launching halflings at everything and everyone.

That has resulted in games like this one, or that one - which hardly ever will happen nowadays because - you know - people embraced your TAO and even stall against halflings, the least risky to play against of all teams.

FUMBBL used to be different.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2022 - 01:38 Reply with quote Back to top

tussock wrote:

This whole thing of bloodbowl being random and chaotic is just nonsense. It's not. The dice are just a good excuse for losing, I use it myself when I don't play well. The best coaches on here do still dice me quite consistently, always keeping my CR below 170, mysteriously.


That is just motivational psycho-babble. Very useful if you are looking to improve your game, but not true.

The kick-off table is nerfed with every new set of rules because people think it affects the game too much.

I saw a Cup final where one team got blitz three times. Total Nuffling. Huge anti-climax for everyone.

In many games, a competent, experienced coach would have pretty much zero chance of beating a Legend.
In blood bowl, even a mediocre, experienced coach can try to keep it close, pray to Nuffle and get a win or tie.

tussock wrote:

I like to think I'm slowly getting to the point where I dice some of them now and then too. Maybe even get multiple games in a row with dice good enough. But man, you gotta position well, eh, and really think about that clock control, and pick the right inducements, otherwise their dice will just be on fire. In a surprisingly consistent fashion.

Like happygrue and his incredible luck with near-rookie Ogres in the FC. And also his incredible luck in the leagues where he gets silly teams to the top and wins anyway. And also he's super good at positioning and clock control and exploiting the tiniest of chances and that is why all that luck floats his way.

Puplechest even wrote a good blog about it. This game isn't really all that random, because of the way attackers only need to fail a few things, and defenders only need to succeed at a few things. Someone recently reminded me, here maybe, where when you start to get good, defence gets easier, because it is when there's little gaps here and there.

--

And like, of course you win 2-1, that describes most possible outcomes that were not tied games. Like, you score in 5 and turn them over for 2-0 half time and then just slow them down a bit so they can't pressure you for the tie.

Or they turned you over first half and rolled you for 2-0 but you got a T16 TTM for 2-1.

Or you turned them over first half twice and had not much team left, but they couldn't get the pressure on quick enough and 2-1 was all they could manage as you corner-stalled the last receive with 2 players.

There's a lot of very different games end up 2-1.


I don't know what you are talking about there. You seem to be talking skill and luck and dice as though they are the same thing. They are not. Are you being ironic?

So, you have to play well. Sure. This isn't snakes and ladders. But Nuffle will often come to your rescue if don't make him have to work too hard for you.

_________________
Image
O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Stars - Anniversary Bowl - Teams of Stars - 13th March
Mnemon



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2022 - 01:50 Reply with quote Back to top

And as a case in point - I am just playing a game as flings against lizards.

He went for the stall, first half, I answered with a TTM score and made it 2-1 in first turn second half ... with my fling landing next to a chameleon that shadowed the fling all the way to the end zone.

Risky, unreasonable, fun for both.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2022 - 02:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah, now stunties are better than they used to be. On one hand, it adds to the number of viable strategies, but on the other hand, it means people are more likely to play your stunties straight.

_________________
Veni, Vidi, Risi
Mnemon



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2022 - 02:30 Reply with quote Back to top

The games I linked above where from 2003. Halflings are much the same - and close to what goblins where back then.

Stalling was well known as an effective tactic all the way back in 2003.

You know and there's that mutual advantage thing: If you are playing to the one rule of all tao you kill all alternative play styles.

The mutual advantage - the in-game cooperation (to make things fun) would be to react to an opposing persons game play. This doesn't ever require a mutual agreement or comment on what the other person is doing. Just observation. And then your choice - do I play as I always do, or do I alter my approach.

If someone goes wacky you have a choice to go along, or stick to your guns. Stick to guns of "how we all do this" is the default today.

So basically in the current climate - you only ever play your game - much as you would against an AI; you do not play a game with an opponent as an individual. It's unreactive, a set structure.

That has drastically altered how bloodbowl feels.

I have some 104 pages of past match results (yikes). Even with non stunty races going back to 2003 ---> 2-1 score lines were not the standard result to the degree as now.

Page 44 of my past matches - in 2007 - 14 of the games listed here had at least one side scoring 3+ touchdowns. A snapshot, but not just an impression.
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2022 - 10:37 Reply with quote Back to top

@tussock "This whole thing of bloodbowl being random and chaotic is just nonsense"

Well, we all know the game has a high element of random chance, and that the better you get at the game the less important that becomes - because good coaches mitigate risk very well

(That's part of what Mnemon is talking about in the sterilisation of the gameplay style)

GW has always positioned the game as being wacky and chaotic
We all know those 2 things are separate - I think you misinterpreted that people were conflating them


I think GW has for a long time left BB to be overseen by its most dedicated fans / player council etc and, admirably, generally avoided interferring with the game balance in the hamfisted way it seems to do it with its mainline games (codex creep argh)

But.. does that mean if the game is a reflection of its top players, and they're playing a more clinical playstyle, the game itself is getting more clinical?
tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2022 - 11:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Bloodbowl is unpredictable because there are unknown outcomes, both in terms of what the other coach will try to do, and in how either coach's attempts will actually work out.

But also how you react, which is the only bit you actually control. Which all sounds a bit stoic, but it's also completely true for bloodbowl. People do try to game each other, with pressure tactics, make people doubt their ability to stall, that sort of thing, but that's still your reaction to their play is the bit you actually control. They might do anything! The dice might be all skulls for two turns!

And you can also influence how much the dice matter. It can be all skulls and they still can't get to the ball. It's why we blitz the ball clear instead of dodge it out, but also sometimes dodge anyway because not blitzing somewhere else is worse, and making it a worse option like that is something you can try to do, for that chance.

...

But like, bloodbowl is super gonzo, it's a game that tells stories about people playing a game very much the wrong way. There's game rules for how to break the in-universe rules. Lots of them. It's a whole chunk of the rulebook, that the game is about breaking the rules of the other game, hiring Wizards and stuff, bribing the ref, on and on it goes. But even within the rules of the game within the game, players kill each other all the time, and then kill more by foul play!

Bloodbowl is wacky. Inherently. Morg carries a giant fricken spike on his glove, and gets away with it because he just murders referees that challenge him about that in any way. But also, we're playing a nice sportsball game with cheerleaders, challenges with funding, even casual corruption, and here's an Ogre killing your team, and the crowd loves it. Have some journeymen desperate to make the team if you lost too many last time out.

Morg's killed hundreds of players, and they just interview him like he's this cool guy with a fun story to tell. It's objectively completely mad.

--

Which is to say, bloodbowl describes a wild, whacky, chaotic game in-universe, players do very silly things! Fall over trying to run a bit faster and die, on the regular. But also the anything you can do is rolled on very specific dice with very specific modifiers, and bribes cost 100k of treasury, or 50k for the goblins and their friends, and not more or less than that.

The actual bloodbowl we play is unpredictable, but it's not anything like chaotic. Once you've played a couple thousand games, you've pretty much seen all the games, and you can see where they're going, and you can understand how you can change that, at least reasonably often. I've done 15 cas in a game, and also taken 15 cas in a game. I've scored 7, and had 7 scored against me. It's not a coincidence those numbers are the same, they're fairly similar for most players who played a whole bunch of games (and having played with and against snotlings/gnoblars and high/pro elfs, respectively).

_________________
ImageImage
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2022 - 15:37 Reply with quote Back to top

Back to the topic, I'm looking at this partly because I'd like to see more strategies in play. The cash-for-TDs rule in the new edition should make it easier to run a team that tries to run up the score, provided you have a plan to steal the ball sometimes.

_________________
Veni, Vidi, Risi
Carthage



Joined: Mar 18, 2021

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2022 - 16:47 Reply with quote Back to top

I like this argument. I'm not playing cheating elves that piss people off. I'm helping out their league progression by running the score up and letting them get cas's on my loner elves.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2022 - 17:25 Reply with quote Back to top

Start with dungeon bowl, then sevens or similar, then whatever rules you think are appropriate.

Any player can only hold the ball for a max 3 turns.

Use 10 turn halves and each team can only hold the ball for max 6 turns.
Then score or punt.

Whatever you like

_________________
Image
O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Stars - Anniversary Bowl - Teams of Stars - 13th March
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2022 - 17:31 Reply with quote Back to top

House rules are fine, but I'm looking at different ways to see what's already being done. I mean, most low-value leagues see most teams improving over the course of the season: the average game is zero-sum in the record books but plus-sum in terms of team development and future prospects. Also, in a round-robin, sometimes you actually want your opponent to come away okay, because their next match is against a team that you want to see lose or suffer. Sure, sometimes that's just about fouling and spatial-control tactics (putting up stacks instead of lines, say), and to a great extent it's roster-driven, but there's gotta be more to it than that. What does a kid-gloves, high SPP (for and against) build look like?

Like, the first thing that pops up in my mind is that 1.5 TDs balances out one dead or maimed Snotling, and Stunty actually decreases your chance of getting killed or maimed because of the added Badly Hurt chance: can't die if you're already off the pitch. I'm kinda hoping for stuff like that.

_________________
Veni, Vidi, Risi
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2022 - 19:07 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm probably just not understanding you.

This sounds more like a philosophy thing than a strategy/tactics thing.

Play for fun and the opponent's fun.

If the coach is a rookie then the opponent should be doing pretty well out of the game anyway. Twisted Evil
Just tell her that she can start easing up a bit as she approaches Legend status. Smile

_________________
Image
O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Stars - Anniversary Bowl - Teams of Stars - 13th March
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2022 - 19:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Strategies are rooted in philosophies, I'm talking about that twilight between theory and practice. What would you do differently if you entered a round-robin league thinking, "I will play each team once. After that, they're someone else's problem. If they get better, they're a bigger problem. So, as long as they don't damage my key players and I get more TDs than they do, the more SPP and cash they gain, the bigger an obstacle they are for all our mutual opponents"?

Lots of coaches have schticks or fetishes. Some play bad teams. Some play Stunties or all-Linemen or only take random mutations or whatever. What if yours was engineering win-win games? It doesn't have to be noob-friendly, if it's something to grow into so much the better. This game is a journey of a thousand miles.

Like one thing I just thought of: keep track of your own Snotling body count, and publicize it after every game. Celebrate your dead snots and their killers, so maybe some coaches might get distracted and go hunting for fame and SPP. Might help, can't hurt.

_________________
Veni, Vidi, Risi
Mnemon



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2022 - 19:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Hm.

Ok - maybe frame it this way: We probably need some meta groups on FUMBBL that encourage bashers to score more touchdowns.

Just as E.L.F. counteracted the elfball tendencies.

Because - the game is getting stale. The notion that all tactics that the "best" way has been discovered is because of what you think the aim is. Winning efficient is all nice and all - but not the only way to win.

And if your aim as a basher is to score a lot of touchdowns ... you'll better get really good at positioning for elfish counter attacks. Make yourself that challenge. A 2-1 win loses you points in the meta group. A 2-2 draw doesn't.

Quote:
The actual bloodbowl we play is unpredictable, but it's not anything like chaotic. Once you've played a couple thousand games, you've pretty much seen all the games, and you can see where they're going, and you can understand how you can change that, at least reasonably often. I've done 15 cas in a game, and also taken 15 cas in a game. I've scored 7, and had 7 scored against me.


Yes - but you are not looking at what it is played like now. The 7-7 scores are gone. 'Cause you know - we collectively decided to be "more sensible". And that that is the fun part.


Last edited by Mnemon on Nov 23, 2022 - 19:58; edited 1 time in total
Display posts from previous:     
 Jump to:   
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic