Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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 Posted:
Sep 24, 2015 - 13:21 |
 
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| plasmoid wrote: |
On my own, still quite young team, my 4 blitzers have:
1. Tackle
2. nothing. Used to have leader, but died while my apothecary was taking a nap 
3. ST? and Frenzy
4. Dodge and Pro.
Cheers
Martin |
Sounds like the worst blitzer ever to me, shouldn't they be the stars of the team??? |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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| Posted:
Sep 24, 2015 - 13:27 |
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Yeah. If anyone's blitzers should be the stars of the show, if not the whole f'n show, it's Brets. |
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Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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plasmoid
Joined: Nov 03, 2009
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Sep 24, 2015 - 13:33 |
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Hi Garion,
they're doing quite well thank you.
They've only gained only 0-2 skills each, so I don't expect any (non elven) blitzer to dominate the pitch at that rank.
Cheers
Martin |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Sep 24, 2015 - 13:45 |
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Sorry plasmoid but this roster design is just terrible. Brets should have blockers on their team, av9 minimum probably st4 too, or av9 SF or something. Their blitzers should have st access, where do you get P from? Total shambles....
I wouldn't mind if it was just a roster on your site, but the fact it has a chance of becoming a legit roster is just depressing. Just like the Quorn roster this has destroyed any hope of this game getting a good roster for this race. I just pray the NAF don't allow this joke of a race.
Such a shame......
shame on you, shame on cyanide, and shame on the NAF if they even consider this pile of ....  |
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plasmoid
Joined: Nov 03, 2009
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Sep 24, 2015 - 14:00 |
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Hi Jimmy and all,
my Brets have been around for quite a while. I think I did my first version almost 20 years ago. The team has been forged in the flames of the internet, so a lot of ground has already been covered. There's probably no point in repeating it all here.
For example (Spubbbba) previous versions had 2 kinds of knights and 2 kinds of squires, but that got shouted down. That version was quite interesting though.
That said, I'm very comfortable with them not having any super human stats. And no, I don't think that Grail Knights havy any bussiness playing BB. Neither did the majority of people I discussed it with at the time.
My first several versions were much closer to the Bretonnian army, but I was persuaded that that military personel have no place on a BB pitch. So by now they are supposed to represent how a feudal nation would play Blood Bowl, rather than how Bretonnian military would play BB.
I'm also quite happy with that decision.
Jimmy said:
| Quote: | | Absolutely. The Blitzers/Knights should have been the stars of the show. I think it's a shame that they didn't keep the super knights (8338 with GS) and nerf the squires somehow. |
Interesting that you should say that, considering that MA8 blitzers was the number one thing hated about the previous version. Super-human, super-natural, werewolf-like statline, was what I was told. By all Means search these forums if you're so inclined.
Where were you man 
When Cyanide told me they wanted to use my roster, I had to consider the offline (= limited) nature of the playtesting done, and had to err on the side of caution. I wanted to make absolutely sure that I (by proxy) didn't unleash a monster on the BB World. Most playtesting had been favourable, but I had én told on a few occasions that they were very/overly good. By people WHO had actually played them and not just theorybowled.
At that exact time I was coincidentally contacted by an Italian coach, who told me that his League considered them completely broken, and that "balanced like a Bretonnian blitzer" was a standing joke in his League. Yikes.
So we discussed the team at length, and came up with these changes.
Even if they came along in a roundabout way, I'm quite happy with them.
I get that the Blitzers aren't super powerful bone-breaking army knights. And I know that that won't appeal to everyone. Instead they're Bretonnian nobility. Perhaps the part of the nobility that didn't join the army. Fast, elegant and hell bent on dazzling the ladies. Still supported by trusty squires and peasant levy.
I also think they present a lot of interesting skill choices. 'Gimped choices' I'm sure someone will say. But new all the same. The blitzers statline makes the G and P skills as interesting as they're ever gonna be.
By all Means avoid them if you don't like a challenge.
But there is no way they are as bad as the tier 3 teams.
Cheers
Martin |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Sep 24, 2015 - 14:06 |
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| Garion wrote: | | Sorry plasmoid but this roster design is just terrible. Brets should have blockers on their team, av9 minimum probably st4 too, or av9 SF or something. |
That part was Cyanide. Plasmoid is as unhappy with the name change as everybody else who understands the game. |
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plasmoid
Joined: Nov 03, 2009
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Sep 24, 2015 - 14:07 |
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I respectfully roll my eyes at your 'shame on you'.
I've seen you throw your hands up so many times at so many Things. Everything is the end of the World. Fair enough, but the novelty Wears off.
You've never really liked anything I did, so I'm not overly convinced that I've squandered a real chance of doing something you'd like.
And while your idea may seem like the greatest thing since powdered toast, I went down that road a long time ago, and the feedback was harsh. Harsher than yours.
I couldn't personally stand ST4 AV9 grail knights prancing around playing BB.
When all is said and done, perhaps everyone would have liked my original roster from 1996 better. Wouldn't that just be ironic
Cheers
Martin |
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plasmoid
Joined: Nov 03, 2009
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Sep 24, 2015 - 14:15 |
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But about the P skills:
Like I said, these are not warrior knights. They're flashy Bretonnian nobility.
They don't neccessarily kill well. But they do whatever yields SPPs. Block a Little, pass a Little, catch a Little, intercept a Little. Score a Little. Even with the ladies. In short: They play BB well (or at least as well as you can expect an AG3 player to).
Also, P has access to 2 very chivalrious skills: Leader and NOS.
It also opens up the option of creating a proper Rugby/Dump-Off team, which I find quite interesting.
They could have had GPS, naturally. But we all know that would be the same as GS.
I know the Bretonnian charge is the first thing that comes to mind when people think if Bretonnians.
Unfortunately, as warhorses aren't allowed on the pitch, MA8, ST4 or Juggernaut is really pushing it.
IMO.
Cheers
Martin |
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straume
Joined: Dec 01, 2003
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Sep 24, 2015 - 14:20 |
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I kind of like them. The fluff sits all right. They are not a particularly good team, imo, but I guess another Tier1 team was never the intention.
For sure I like this lot a lot better than the better version from back in the day. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Sep 24, 2015 - 14:21 |
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| plasmoid wrote: |
For example (Spubbbba) previous versions had 2 kinds of knights and 2 kinds of squires, but that got shouted down. That version was quite interesting though. |
That maybe so, however Spubbba's very good at this sort of thing. He's always worth considering.
| plasmoid wrote: | | That said, I'm very comfortable with them not having any super human stats. And no, I don't think that Grail Knights havy any bussiness playing BB. Neither did the majority of people I discussed it with at the time. |
There are a whole host of Knight names from 3rd ed onwards. Personally I'm not bothered what type of Knights are used, you can pick and choose 2 types. If the lower type is blitzeresque stick with a blitzer.
| plasmoid wrote: | | My first several versions were much closer to the Bretonnian army, but I was persuaded that that military personel have no place on a BB pitch. |
Your original version was also much better...........which tells you what? Some of your advisors aren't necessarily right.
| plasmoid wrote: | | At that exact time I was coincidentally contacted by an Italian coach, who told me that his League considered them completely broken, and that "balanced like a Bretonnian blitzer" was a standing joke in his League. Yikes. |
I used to run a themed league on here, with customized rosters. I was contacted by several coaches telling me that such and such a roster was broken. I had several messages in fact, and nearly every message was a different roster. I was also told by one experienced coach that one particular roster was far too weak. So I took that roster and won the second season with it.
Go with your hunches, and take feed back from those without a vested interest. The guy running a league with one team dominating has a vested interest.
I'm not going to give an overall opinion, you know what I think already. You also know that me and Garion generally have the same opinion in these matters. I do appreciate the work you put in, and that you make BB a better place by investing so much of your time. And that it's frustrating taking a lot of flak for trying to make the game and community a better place. |
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SquirrelDude
Joined: Mar 22, 2015
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Sep 24, 2015 - 14:27 |
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| plasmoid wrote: | Blockers/Yeomen should probably take Guard, even though it doesn't Work too well with Wrestle. Guard combos well with Stand Firm.
Mighty Blow is also a very nice skill.
And Tackle is very nice on someone who already has wrestle.
Alternatively, Wrestle goes well with Grab, for getting opposing players out of the way. And for setting up surfs (with Frenzy Blitzers) as another way of getting opposing players off the pitch. And with wrestle they can even do a fairly reasonable 2-dice-against Blocks, for some surprising surf-opportunities.
Some way down the list is fend, which is only really interesting if you're gonna spam it. And you just might, seeing the skill access of the Blitzers. Fend (and Wrestle) is a nice counter to (C)POMB, and adds some mobility. Coach Niebling (of some FUMBBL renown) is an Expert at using Fend ruin the opponents plan. |
You have four pieces that start with wrestle, and you're not giving any of them strip ball? |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Sep 24, 2015 - 14:30 |
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| plasmoid wrote: | I respectfully roll my eyes at your 'shame on you'.
I've seen you throw your hands up so many times at so many Things. Everything is the end of the World. Fair enough, but the novelty Wears off.
You've never really liked anything I did, so I'm not overly convinced that I've squandered a real chance of doing something you'd like. |
Well me and Garion you can put in the same boat here. I honestly feel I am not biased on anything. If Cyanide announce a new roster, I'm willing to see it until I judge. The same with you Plas.
However, your design goals are the exact opposite to mine. I really don't think Garion is judging it being on you. He even used an older roster of yours for secret league. I think he's just frustrated that the roster has moved further and further away from what we envision.
What's more frustrating is that you're taking advice that we feel is taking things even further away.
I really feel, with your design goals you'll get negative feedback from me, Spub, Garion and others not because it's you (I have nothing against you at all) but because of how you design a roster. Which goes totally against the grain of those original 14 or so roster designs.
I'm afraid you're going to continually get negative feedback from this part of the community, and it has nothing to do with any sort of bias. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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| Posted:
Sep 24, 2015 - 14:37 |
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I just don't get how you think designing rosters with no attention to the fluff is ok?
Ask anyone what a Knight should have for skill access in this game and they would say S access its just absolute beginners stuff. Also the game had a roster in 4th ed which was far far closer to how it should look.
I know that 4th edition didn't last long but its pretty clear how they went about designing the roster, its just laughable how left field your roster is.
I have liked a number of things you did. Like the Kislev roster you did was pretty cool. But this is stupid like giving a Chaos Minotaur Leader, which you tried to do. Its just nonsense, but there is nothing we can do, it seems like the people in charge of the game don't actually give a toss about it any more, or if they do then they are moronic. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Sep 24, 2015 - 14:54 |
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The idea of Knights passing the ball and avoiding the actual blocking is clearly against the chivalric code of Bretonnia, that basically says Knights have to stick to fight their opponents in melee combat and never refuse a challenge. The fluff explains also that Knights never use ranged weapons and scoring by passing game can be compared to using a "ranged weapon" on the pitch (of course, not literally, but I mean, the pass allows to avoid to score by running through the opponents with the ball, that is very knightly in my opinion for Bretonnian standards.)
Also, a full plate or mail wearing Knight should not be so fast, nor he should have great mobility and freedom of movement, let alone the lack of sight with a helmet they have, so the Pass access is wrong. They should have S access.
Last but not least, if you want to make a roster not portraying Bretonnia, but just an ordinary pseudo-feudal team not-Bretonnia related then don't use the word Bretonnia and Bretonnians, it's misleading. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Sep 24, 2015 - 15:05 |
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So on this theme, how is replacing your Yeoman with a Squire (one that does the errands of the Knight) wrong? The Squire is basically a runner (pass access with sure hands) that runs and fetches the ball, to give to the knights that have the GS access then do all the fancy stuff.
It's a go and get my.... situation. Then you have realistic access and still keep to this feudal theme. |
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