zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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 Posted:
Apr 13, 2015 - 12:39 |
 
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| Leilond wrote: | Let's consider this one turn attempt from skaven, against an opponent deployed all in the back, gutter runner with sprint and sure feet
Pickup with a gutter, handoff (if you're enought lucky to have the ball land within 9 square of the reciver), catch, 3 go for it, two 3+ dodge, one 2+ dodge
Chance: 40%, 61% with a reroll
If you have at least two tackle players (more stuff) |
Last time I checked, with the typical 8 players deep defense spaced 1 square of each other, the dodge rolls are 4+, 3+, 2+, and you need 4 tacklers (or DT, Tents...) to cover the width of the field.
Alternatively, you can blitz your way through, specially if you have dauntless or a guard GR. |
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ErobererZim
Joined: Dec 19, 2009
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Apr 13, 2015 - 12:55 |
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I think its fine, without thse Options u will never see more Games on rank with mices vs heavy bashers outside of tourneys, aswell there have a couble of CPOMBER (where than the heavy bashers dont play vs them (offering a loose and some DeadGuys).
And there force the SPP on 1 Gutter who u can handle well and than the Game of the mices is broken. And there made that the mices Score faster and dont stall more so long and give the bashers more time to force the micelines and kick tham back to hell. And when u stall till T8/T16 than its your problem when u know he have an easy 1Turner. Score fast so u have enough time to manage em in the defence or forcing a 1Turner and u got another chance of an TD in the Halftime.
On the old Rulz u had Gutters with MA11, Very Long Legs, Sprint, Sure Feet, Sidestep, also MA 12 with 3gfi. There run nearly in 1Turn from Endzone to Endzone. |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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| Posted:
Apr 13, 2015 - 13:01 |
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| zakatan wrote: | | Leilond wrote: | Let's consider this one turn attempt from skaven, against an opponent deployed all in the back, gutter runner with sprint and sure feet
Pickup with a gutter, handoff (if you're enought lucky to have the ball land within 9 square of the reciver), catch, 3 go for it, two 3+ dodge, one 2+ dodge
Chance: 40%, 61% with a reroll
If you have at least two tackle players (more stuff) |
Last time I checked, with the typical 8 players deep defense spaced 1 square of each other, the dodge rolls are 4+, 3+, 2+, and you need 4 tacklers (or DT, Tents...) to cover the width of the field.
Alternatively, you can blitz your way through, specially if you have dauntless or a guard GR. |
Sure, I surely forgot some "scenarios", but the success probability are nearly the same (a push is 4 on 6, like a 3+ dodge, unless you have dautless AND a guard gutter)
The final consideration is still valid. Do we really need to be concearned with a rule that make a 190k gutter able to do a OTTD 60/70% of each try, and only if the kick off table do not hit you with perfect defense or some other unlucky rolls with exaustion, throw rock or pitch invasion?
Is a 5 skilled gutter runner so much more deadly (and game changing) than a 5 skilled wardancer of a Block/tackle/MB/PO/Claw beastman or a Block/Tackle/MB/PO/Claw/Guard/XX Chaos Dwarf?
I don't think so.
I think that the majority of people that ask for a such modification, never played enought with skaven to understand
1) How long does it take to build a such oneturner, IF and only IF you manage to roll a +MA
2) How difficult is to keep those oneturner alive until it reach the necessary skills to be effective (+MA, block, sprint, sure feet, leap)
3) How difficult is to keep those oneturner alive when your oppoenent see it (Buy reserves more than a couple of reserves, expecially in black box, make your opponents 100k stronger with skills on his killers). The oneturner is usually forced to play at least an entire defensive drive... and if you play conservative, you're not going to stop your opponent to score and you have to give all your hope to a 65% chance to make one turn, hoping the kick off table do not destroy your plan... and this has to be made two times, because you dedicated 190k of your TV only to oneturn it and when you keep him in the reserve to not be bashed, your team is 190k short in TV against your opponent
No no, one turn isn't an issue at all. I suggest all you to play skaven in the box for 50-60 matches, and you'll find out how difficult is to roll a oneturner and to keep him alive and effective. |
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Roland
Joined: May 12, 2004
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| Posted:
Apr 13, 2015 - 13:36 |
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does skaven really need a MA 10 to OTS? I mean it's only 2 pushes (!)
a rookie GR can score with only 4-5 players on the pitch if the blitzer's got grab. |
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Kam
Joined: Nov 06, 2012
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Apr 13, 2015 - 13:38 |
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Sprint is perfectly fine as it is. PurpleChest is right, the problem isn't Sprint: it's Sptint + MA. |
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GLN 17 is out!
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ErobererZim
Joined: Dec 19, 2009
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Apr 13, 2015 - 14:04 |
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| Roland wrote: | does skaven really need a MA 10 to OTS? I mean it's only 2 pushes (!)
a rookie GR can score with only 4-5 players on the pitch if the blitzer's got grab. |
Than give al Skavens +AV, so there live longer and there dont need so fast Gutters. Or lower the cost of the Linos on 40k. there be only walking fraks without Dodge and stunty and AG3. Or give mices the Option on 4 Blitzers to get go into the Brawl and fight. The think of Mices is there have 4(6) Good Players rest be Bad Meatshilds. When u pick Up the speed of the Gutters, why u will play with mices? there dont have overal AG4 like Elfs. And so much Str4 and higher Players as other Teams. In most of the Games u be screwed of players AND have the lower Strange on the pitch u ONLY have the Speed. U stole the Speed there be only Bad Elfs, who can get Mutations. And so fast the Gutters run, so fast there Die. |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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Apr 13, 2015 - 15:00 |
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| Kam wrote: | | Sprint is perfectly fine as it is. PurpleChest is right, the problem isn't Sprint: it's Sptint + MA. |
Have you read the percentage?
Pickup, catch, go for it, go for it, go for it, 4+ dodge, 3+ dodge, 2+ dodge. With a gutter with +MA, Block (because YOU GIVE BLOCK to him), sprint sure feet (51 spp) is 33% to do it, 51% with a reroll at hand. And if you have 4 tacklers (enought to force me to pass near them) the chance go even down
It's a small chance given to rats as counterpart for the quickness of death for rats. Gutter runners die every other match. It's not rat fault if bashers prefer to pick MB, Claw and PO before tackle. Start with tackle, then MB, and you'll find that gutter runners die very easly... but if you do not take 3 or 4 tackler in your team, it's only and exclusively your fault if I've got 4 of them on the pitch at the end of the match. If you do not take kick, and force me to make one more roll, because you want another guard, it's again your fault
MA10 isn't an issue, at all. 50% to score, and only if my opponent do not roll perfect defence and only if the ball do not scatter out of handoff range and make me roll one more dice, and if the runner is on the pitch, and if a rock don't put him down, if an invasion do not stun it, if he doesn't fall down due to exaustion.
If you nerf this, you have to give something back that worth them to be played, like +ST on the Vermin, or a free wrestle to another couple of 60k positional or the like.
People that want to nerf gutters, never played enought long skaven, and didn't see plenty of their oneturners die one after another. Probably because, every 10 or 15 matches, someone fail to win a match because of a 50/50 one turn attempt |
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Mossbeard
Joined: Jul 03, 2005
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Apr 13, 2015 - 16:31 |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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Apr 13, 2015 - 17:16 |
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| Mossbeard wrote: | | Sprint is overpowered?? |
They say that Gutter Runners are overpowered
I think that's because a lot of peaople insist in taking MB, Claw and PO befor tackle, and then they cannot manage to put the +MA oneturner out of the pitch before turn 16 and think the problem is the rat and not the lack of tackle |
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Kam
Joined: Nov 06, 2012
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Apr 13, 2015 - 17:17 |
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50% chances to have a free touchdown is not OP (or even much more if you don't have 11 players to defend with)?
Err... let's agree to disagree on this one... |
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GLN 17 is out!
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Apr 13, 2015 - 17:26 |
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Fixing things that aren't broken!
A fumbbl tradition  |
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Harad
Joined: May 11, 2014
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Apr 13, 2015 - 17:47 |
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I can't remember the last game which I felt was broken by ottd. How many people are winning lots of games because of ottds (and I don't mean a coach who has a natural one turner who uses them every attack because that isn't a problem, that's a gift.)
Some coaches I very much respect are chipping in on this one, but they must be experiencing this in a different way to me. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Apr 13, 2015 - 17:56 |
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I can tell you that in 2 of the leagues I have been in there have been nasty skaven teams with natural one turners and cpomb blitzers...
OMG, those teams are a freaking nightmare to play.
But, you clearly have to adapt your tactics when you face them, and sometimes, yes, you are doomed to loose, but frequently enough you make it your only goal to destroy the offending players, and eventually they are dead and then those skaven teams are just another punching bag 
Maybe this is more of an open division problem though, because then you don't really care so much about what happens to your opponents team over time since you don't have to face them all the time.
In L, certain teams and certain players get targeted mercilessly. To the point where inducements selected have zero to do with helping you win, and everything to do with just finding a way to hopefully kill or maim. |
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fidius
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
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Apr 13, 2015 - 18:09 |
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I can't speak for others, but for me it's a philosophical objection. The idea of a free touchdown, without some special external event or crazy play (TTM), doesn't sit right. T'aint Blood Bowl. Not to mention if your team doesn't have the skills to cope with such a beast, it can quickly render a match futile. There are a few scenarios that are not fun for both coaches in this game, and natural one-turning is on the list imo.
On the other hand there was a game in my local league two seasons ago, Woodies vs Lizardmen, where both had natural one-turners. The score was 11-8. You can guess what each turn consisted of. I suppose that was mildly amusing for both coaches. |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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Apr 13, 2015 - 18:15 |
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It's not a free touch down.
It's a 5 skill players, very fragile, that have to survive in the pitch until turn 16, and that usually do not survive more than some matches, if you know the importance of tackle in this game
It's nothing NEAR a free TD. It's a very difficult build even more difficult to protect with all the crappy rat around them
If you are not able to put out of the pitch a simple ST2 AG7 players, because you're full of MB, Claw and PO, but forgot to put in your team 3-4 tacklers, I run around you and laught, while you insist in runnig behind him with a single MA6 tackler or without at all
It's all your fault if at 1300 tv you still have ZERO tacklers (but 4 MB, 2 Claw and 2 PO) and at 1500TV you've got only one or two (and half a dozen of killstack)
If oneturner was so overpowered, why skaven aren't nearly winning a major? Why those tournaments are ALWAYS won by Bashers and every now and then by wood elf?
Pheraps, because good coaches, know their chicken |
Last edited by Leilond on %b %13, %2015 - %18:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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