| Poll |
| Preferred 4 blocker first skill set up |
| All block |
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51% |
[ 29 ] |
| block, block, guard, block |
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10% |
[ 6 ] |
| block, guard, block, guard |
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14% |
[ 8 ] |
| different permutation |
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7% |
[ 4 ] |
| something involving mb |
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12% |
[ 7 ] |
| a number with a non terminating non repeating decimal , so a guy with a profile pic of Hitler's clone wont mess up the thread |
|
3% |
[ 2 ] |
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| Total Votes : 56 |
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Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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 Posted:
Jul 07, 2016 - 05:00 |
 
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| MattDakka wrote: | For me the first skill on Blockers is Block to have blocking reliability and to start to earn SPPs through Casualties.
Guard is the second skill.
If my ST 4 Blocker has Guard but not Block I will block less often, making his Strength 4 less useful this way. |
Same for me on this issue.
The only way I vary from this is if 1 of the BOBs skills and has 10 or more spps when he skills. In that case I go with Mighty Blow and follow it soon after (hopefully) with Block.
Block is quite possibly the most important skill in the game for MOST (but not ALL) players on MOST teams. And for the teams and players where it is not the most important skill it is often the 2ND MOST important skill. (Although Wrestle can sometimes be the skill of choice instead of Block.) |
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DarthPhysicist
Joined: Jun 14, 2015
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| Posted:
Jul 07, 2016 - 05:26 |
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That still doesn't make total sense; the need for guard is not for the person who has it, but rather the person they are assisting. Because a Black Orc is St 4, it makes it all the better for him to have it. The players around him benefit from his guard and become almost as if they had St 4 as well. Being slow and highly armored (unlike the elf that gets guard), they can take the punishment that the opponent will try to dish out to remove their "guard" from the scrum. An AV 7 elf on the other hand, will likely cost as much, be only st 3, and be targeted for removal by any means necessary. Why I like to spam my BOBs with Guard is because they are centrally located (typically), are tough as nails to bring down, and spread that strength to the other players, all the while keeping TV low.
I get why to add block first; I really do. I can see the appeal. But giving them guard just means that you will have to pass up some blocks for a better position sometimes and passing up blocks for position is usually (if not always) a good thing. Also I challenge the idea that I should be trying to level them up faster. What good does that really do? Orcs do not perform well at high TV as they start getting pummeled by Claw POMBers. Seems to me that anything that leads to wins while keeping TV low should be desired for Orcs. Norse have similar issues. |
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Using derivative humor since 2005.
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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| Posted:
Jul 07, 2016 - 13:24 |
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To be quite honest the argument for giving black orcs guard to stay low tv and use positional nous sounds less like an argument for that and more like an argument for dropping one/two as you get more skills.
A black Orc is ma4, ag2 and s4 with no other skills. Considering most of the rest of the linup has near enough the same skill access, better movement, and can ball a bit in return for being weaker, you could make the argument that rather than take guard first on all your BoBs you should just drop one and exploit the strength of the blitzers. To be clear, I'm not making that argument, but when you start whimsying about "staying low tv" these are the paths you tread. |
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DarthPhysicist
Joined: Jun 14, 2015
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| Posted:
Jul 07, 2016 - 15:20 |
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80k though is cheap for St 4. If you could pay 100k for a St 4 player with guard right out of the box, wouldn't you do it? |
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Using derivative humor since 2005.
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Jul 07, 2016 - 15:26 |
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| DarthPhysicist wrote: | | I'm not sure I understand this. Guard is worth 30k TV but not 20k? |
Well let me clear this up then.
Lets take our lovable fur ball Wood Elfs, these dudes do not like to play with treemen on their roster.
So they now have a roster devoid of any S access skills. Who ever rolls a doubles gets guard, period end of story.
The Adorable Orcs on the other hand have a roster that is littered with S access, they have the luxury of picking and choosing who gets guard and who does not.
That is why if you play a team with little to no S access it is never a bad idea to take guard as your first double on those non S access players. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Jul 07, 2016 - 15:32 |
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| DarthPhysicist wrote: | | Also I challenge the idea that I should be trying to level them up faster. What good does that really do? Orcs do not perform well at high TV as they start getting pummeled by Claw POMBers. Seems to me that anything that leads to wins while keeping TV low should be desired for Orcs. Norse have similar issues. |
I think the root of your discombobulation is rooted in your lack of desire/fear of having a orc team go over TV X because this is the box and CPOMB.
BoB's are the heart of the Orc team, Orcs rise and fall by how they perform. If you look at the good to great orc teams in the Box and Ranked you will find they all have very skilled up and good BoB's. Now, that comes at a cost in TV, it will elevate above your TV threshold but in the end a really good Orc team has 4 BoB's with 4-6 skills on all of them.
** Foot Note **
If you really are trying to min/max a Orc roster let me give you some guidance.
4 Blitzers
4 BoBs
4 Goblins: They are your ball handlers and such, Goblins also are not terrible at low TV on an Orc team.
1 Troll
There you go, use that line up. |
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Last edited by PainState on %b %07, %2016 - %16:%Jul; edited 1 time in total |
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DarthPhysicist
Joined: Jun 14, 2015
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| Posted:
Jul 07, 2016 - 15:58 |
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Littered with S access is useless though if you don't use that S access. |
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Using derivative humor since 2005.
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Jul 07, 2016 - 16:41 |
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| DarthPhysicist wrote: | | Littered with S access is useless though if you don't use that S access. |
Well, all S access teams over time as they grow in TV will have MB/G spammed all over the roster. The question at hand though was what to take on the first skill. |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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| Posted:
Jul 07, 2016 - 17:10 |
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| DarthPhysicist wrote: | | 80k though is cheap for St 4. If you could pay 100k for a St 4 player with guard right out of the box, wouldn't you do it? |
The issue is that that guard is ma4 and ag2.
You have just made getting him his second skill harder as he still cannot reliably block, is a 4+ to hand off to, and guess what, he's not actually a great guard either because he can be -2d blocked away (or 1d blocked if the opposition has guards) quite reliably and his mobility is utter garbage - he is actually a bottleneck in your offensive drive rather than a pillar.
And all this to "stay low tv"? Like I said, I'd rather drop a BoB and have 4x guard/mb on blitzers or some doubles and a skill elsewhere if I was going down that route.
I don't think it's particularly worth making life harder at low tv just to avoid playing at high tv. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Jul 07, 2016 - 17:15 |
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| DarthPhysicist wrote: | | Littered with S access is useless though if you don't use that S access. |
This is off subject but is important in team building.
Every roster has a strength when it comes to skill access.
Orcs/Dwarfs as an example over time will have G/MB and the complimentary skills spammed over the entire roster. IF you refuse to do that, you are not playing to their strength.
Elfs if you refuse to Blodge or Wrodge up the roster, you are not playing to their strengths.
Humans and so forth who do not take G/MB/PO on the few players who have S access, you are not playing to their strength.
Chaos and Nurgle, hold on to your butt on this one, if they do not have at least 2 players with CPOMB are not building the team to its strength.
Now you can say some teams do not build on the strength of their roster because they play in Ranked, makes it harder to get matches or League, because they do not want to be "that guy" who makes every one mad you have shown up with a "cheese" killer build.
Box, well, that is, what it is.
#1 lesson of team building is knowing what the strength of your roster is based on the skill access and # of players who have access to that strength and focus on those skills. Of course there are other skills you need or you are rolling +STATS and so forth but you always attempt to build on the strength of the roster with your skill choices.
Of course the Agility Monsters and Der Green Tide, ignore this advice and are off the reservation on team building.
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Medon
Joined: Jan 28, 2015
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| Posted:
Jul 07, 2016 - 18:03 |
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Guard, guard, guard, guard
Let the blitzers do the blocking. |
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Verminardo
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
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| Posted:
Jul 07, 2016 - 18:09 |
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I'm not an Orc player but looking at how the good TT Orc players skill their BOBs I'd say two Guard two Block for maximum effectiveness at low TV. Block first or even Block MB first if you're mainly interested in team development. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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| Posted:
Jul 07, 2016 - 18:13 |
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In a new team I like to take one Block BOB and one Guard BOB as fast as possible. The one is a great blitzer off the LOS and is good for opening holes in a well-constructed defense, the other is necessary to engineer 2d hits from your Blitzers, who are the ones you really want to be making most of your hits with, as they quickly build up to Mighty Blow, Tackle, and Piling on. Third and fourth BOBs are really a judgment call, but I lean to Block first.
In a developed team, especially in League, I give my new BOBs Mighty Blow first, then Block, then Guard. This is because I already have "enough" Guard and I need to get the BOBs up to speed. If I have multiple BOBs to replace I might get the first one Block, just so I'm not making a lot of unskilled hits. BOBs are hard to skill up and soak up a lot of hits, 'cause they man key positions and they use their high ST to take on hard-hitting players. They're tough, but they take damage anyway. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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ph0enyx13
Joined: Nov 14, 2015
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| Posted:
Jul 14, 2016 - 13:08 |
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I would thing taking guard early would cut down on the dorf advantage early |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Jul 14, 2016 - 16:31 |
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| ph0enyx13 wrote: | | I would think taking guard early would cut down on the dorf advantage early |
Early enough and the dwarfs don't have guard so ST4 is enough to handle them.
I really can't see taking guard 1st on BoBs. That just sounds like you're begging for a lot of 1/9 failed blocks. Or you're just giving away your opportunities to throw blocks out of fear of the turn over (which is sometimes the right way to look at it).
It's not like there are that many teams which can match 4 st4 players anyway, and the ones that can aren't likely to be that fussed by blockless guard Bobs.
I guess it comes down to how you think Orcs should be played. But blockless BoBs will be that much easier to just mark out the game. At least the block ones will get 1/36 2d to make the opponent pay for it. |
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