FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Joined: Apr 10, 2009

Posted: Dec 23, 2009 - 11:07

IMHO the problem with ogres is that they can easily perform in extremes.

Good trait: ST5 + MB over the place
Bad trait: Bonehead over the place

Both traits can have a great influence in a match and are very sensible to luck streaks (good or bad).

Bobs

Joined: Feb 26, 2009

Posted: Dec 23, 2009 - 11:13

Ha here endeth the discussion.
Ogres are fun and unpredictable like gobs lings and vamps just enjoy.

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Optihut

Joined: Dec 16, 2004

Posted: Dec 23, 2009 - 11:24

Just play elves instead of orcs: You can easily dodge away from the ogres and won't get beaten up.

CircularLogic

Joined: Aug 22, 2003

Posted: Dec 23, 2009 - 11:37

My Highelves beg to differ, when they had their 17 game winning streak ended by ogres that just annihilated them within a few turns.

Wreckage

Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Posted: Dec 23, 2009 - 11:48

maybe the TS calculation should differ stronger between block and non block ogres...

I see that many people say ogres are bashy but IMO that indicates that they play them wrong. I think it's the same kind of people that is responsible for their low winning stats. If I try to max out the bashing abilities I can bash with any race fairly decent. If I try to win games I won't be even able to risk blocks most of the time. 1/9 failchance, 1,2 rerolls and this 6 times a turn just seems to be flawd a approach.

Grouchy

Joined: Feb 13, 2005

Posted: Dec 23, 2009 - 12:16

pie

Fela

Joined: Dec 27, 2004

Posted: Dec 23, 2009 - 12:17

Christer wrote:

The funny thing is that if I were to do anything about Ogre TS, it'd be to lower it. The ogres are one of the weakest teams when it comes to winning games (which is the point of TS), and it'd be completely opposing the purpose of TS to increase it.

I beg to differ.

How about running a check over the DB comparing the statistics of healthy Ogre team vs healthy regular team (i.e. Ogre TS discount equalized by handicaps) with the statistics of healthy Ogre team vs beaten up opponent (i.e. Ogre TS discount equalized by the beaten up status of the opponent).

I'd be curious if there's a significant difference.

maysrill

Joined: Dec 29, 2008

Posted: Dec 23, 2009 - 12:55

Ogres are among the worst teams in blood bowl. The TS calc only scratches the surface of their suckitude. If anything, Bonehead should be the opposite of DP in terms of TS penalties: the more boneheaded players you have, the worse it gets.

Before you go condemning ogres as a race, play them and try:

-beating a team with 4+ blodgers
-protecting a ball carrier when half your team is boneheaded
-handling the ball when you have no skills (sure hands, etc.) and few rerolls

Also: the box isn't particularly rebuild-friendly. While you may get winnable games when your teams is beat up (i.e. ogres), the team you face is still just as likely to be loaded with DPs, or be orcs/dwarfs/khemri.

Ogres forever!

Mightypeon

Joined: Jan 13, 2009

Posted: Dec 23, 2009 - 12:59

With Ogres, you can have a fair amount of success against other Bashers, but anyone with enough Blodge totally pwnerz you.
Ogres can hurt quite a bit, they can one turn and getting the ball away from them (provided they pick it up) can be quite hard without strip ball.
However, it is usually very easy to score against them, and preventing one of their scores isnt that hard either.

Thomcat

Joined: Jul 20, 2004

Posted: Dec 23, 2009 - 13:27

Fela wrote:

As a general rule the box is pretty recovery-friendly. A beaten up team will automatically be paired up with another beaten up team or with a weaker opponent....

..or meet ogres due to the broken TS calculation.

Reason: bone head is usually a sign that the player is a big guy, thus a TS discount is justified. But in an Ogre team they are just regular players. The bone head roll can be rerolled, so there is no certainty that the specific discounted player will only act on average 5/6 of his turns. But only that certainty justifies the TS discount.

So please, either remove the TS discount for non big-guy negatraits or remove ogres from the box altogether. Since the race is only played by sociopath coaches or as a "fun team" by others there would be no harm done in removing them anyway, the box needs neither.

Look at Ogres in Ranked - they are the team that wins the least percentage of games. That even with some of the REALLY great coaches playing them (for diversity).

So when you wanna fix things - off course you also want the BROKEN AV to be fixed RIGHT ?

Because AV 9 cost next to nothing in TS. Which is pretty much why orc can never have higher Ts than Tr. Even a great orc team - is still at even tr/ts. While a just decent elven og skaven team has at least 10% higher ts. That pretty much shows that the 10% is to low on the orcs.

Ogres still have alot of races they have next to no chance against due to the complete lack of tackle and their weak ball handling skills (ok the goblins might be able to handle the ball - but they fly off the field so fast)

And yes I have played my more than fair amount of ogre games. Won way to many as well. But it al come down to what suit you to play. My playstyle suits for some reason ogres very well.

The only reason why I play B is to be able to play with the races that take me 4ever to games with in Ranked. And yes I am talking about the ogres here.

And OFF topic - to whine about Ogres - when playing Orcs in Black Box is imo a bit weird.

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soranos

Joined: May 14, 2009

Posted: Dec 23, 2009 - 13:35

Ogres have a decent shot in games against low agility bashers, especially Lizzards or Chaos Dwarves, against anyone else they really have to luck out a lot with the block and armor rolls in order to have much of a chance at winning.

DukeTyrion

Joined: Feb 18, 2004

Posted: Dec 23, 2009 - 14:01

Fela wrote:

Christer wrote:

The funny thing is that if I were to do anything about Ogre TS, it'd be to lower it. The ogres are one of the weakest teams when it comes to winning games (which is the point of TS), and it'd be completely opposing the purpose of TS to increase it.

I beg to differ.

How about running a check over the DB comparing the statistics of healthy Ogre team vs healthy regular team (i.e. Ogre TS discount equalized by handicaps) with the statistics of healthy Ogre team vs beaten up opponent (i.e. Ogre TS discount equalized by the beaten up status of the opponent).

I'd be curious if there's a significant difference.

On another point, it sounds to me like you have shifted your view a little, you seem to be less ocncerned with the Ogre TS and more with the low numbered sides TS perhaps?

BiggieB

Joined: Feb 19, 2005

Posted: Dec 23, 2009 - 14:24

This is an improper way to evaluate the strenghts of an ogre team. If you would compare these stats you would end up with a nest of underlyers. And unless you could indentify them all your results would be questionable at best. As for the rest: I dont see how you can argue with a database of over 1.5 million games? Thats pretty significant amount of data. Back to the corner for ya! Smile

Fela wrote:

Christer wrote:

The funny thing is that if I were to do anything about Ogre TS, it'd be to lower it. The ogres are one of the weakest teams when it comes to winning games (which is the point of TS), and it'd be completely opposing the purpose of TS to increase it.

I beg to differ.

How about running a check over the DB comparing the statistics of healthy Ogre team vs healthy regular team (i.e. Ogre TS discount equalized by handicaps) with the statistics of healthy Ogre team vs beaten up opponent (i.e. Ogre TS discount equalized by the beaten up status of the opponent).

I'd be curious if there's a significant difference.

Calthor

Joined: Jan 24, 2006

Posted: Dec 23, 2009 - 14:45

Perhaps there should be a Bash Strength rating for teams. We would call it BS and it would influence the scheduler as well, with bashy teams only playing bashy teams, roughly speaking...

(Just to clarify, I'm NOT serious.)

Wraith

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Dec 23, 2009 - 15:01

CircularLogic wrote:

My Highelves beg to differ, when they had their 17 game winning streak ended by ogres that just annihilated them within a few turns.

And that would be any different vs a team full up with MB that happens to luck out, how exactly? What about them being ogres was the reason? Was it all the tackle they had?

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