Jeffro
Joined: Jan 22, 2009
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 Posted:
Dec 23, 2009 - 15:23 |
 
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| Wraith wrote: | | CircularLogic wrote: | | My Highelves beg to differ, when they had their 17 game winning streak ended by ogres that just annihilated them within a few turns. |
And that would be any different vs a team full up with MB that happens to luck out, how exactly? What about them being ogres was the reason? Was it all the tackle they had? |
Wraith... we haven't always seen eye to eye on things, but... [/me puts my finger to my nose and points at Wraith] |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Dec 23, 2009 - 15:59 |
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| Wraith wrote: | | CircularLogic wrote: | | My Highelves beg to differ, when they had their 17 game winning streak ended by ogres that just annihilated them within a few turns. |
And that would be any different vs a team full up with MB that happens to luck out, how exactly? What about them being ogres was the reason? Was it all the tackle they had? |
It wouldn`t be different. Just that ogres don`t have to luck out that much as other teams to archieve the same steamroll. |
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maysrill
Joined: Dec 29, 2008
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Dec 23, 2009 - 16:01 |
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| Jeffro wrote: | | Wraith wrote: | | CircularLogic wrote: | | My Highelves beg to differ, when they had their 17 game winning streak ended by ogres that just annihilated them within a few turns. |
And that would be any different vs a team full up with MB that happens to luck out, how exactly? What about them being ogres was the reason? Was it all the tackle they had? |
Wraith... we haven't always seen eye to eye on things, but... [/me puts my finger to my nose and points at Wraith] |
My pro elf team, with just 1 MB and only making 2 fouls, nearly cleared the pitch against some rotters last night.
Nerf pro elves! Nerf Mighty Blow! Nerf Nufflings!
Ogres beating high elves is like zons beating dwarfs. Sure, it can happen, but it's a surprising result.
I also don't find it surprising at all that a top coach dislikes ogres because of their randomness. Randomness favors weaker players in general, since in a non-random game where it was 100% skill, the top players would dominate (like chess).
For every team flattened by ogres, there are 3 that got away with a gift win (though often with some injuries). The unfortunate coach who gets in the way of a good dice game for ogres will be far more upset and vocal than the lucky ones who walked past a team of vapid behemoths who didn't pay attention to the game. The ogre coaches get to see both sides. |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Dec 23, 2009 - 16:55 |
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So much thread just because Orc Average lost one game against the much more experienced ogre-grandmaster Gary_Gygax.
So much fale, Fela, don't even know where to start.
If something is in dire need of higher TS then that would be your AV9 orcs. |
Last edited by Frankenstein on %b %23, %2009 - %18:%Dec; edited 1 time in total |
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treborius
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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Dec 23, 2009 - 17:48 |
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| Wraith wrote: | | CircularLogic wrote: | | My Highelves beg to differ, when they had their 17 game winning streak ended by ogres that just annihilated them within a few turns. |
And that would be any different vs a team full up with MB that happens to luck out, how exactly? What about them being ogres was the reason? Was it all the tackle they had? |
hehe, nice one 
CL, try playing that roster in the Box.
i've seen you have a combined Ogre-record of 4/0/2, but didn't play more than 3 games with 1 team.
very good, but not much when compared to your apparently excellent coaching abilities 
i'd be really curious to see how you performed with them and since you said they were durable i'd be really interested how you perform, once you hit TS=150 and above.
i've seen too many Ogre-teams retire in the box, because when they gain experience and you don't roll many more doubles than expected, all the skills that are available for you are: guard, po, mb, bt - errr, that's it (i'd gladly let go any further skillrolls after giving them guard, half the team bt and maybe 3xmulti-block and 3xpo on the team - the rest of the skills are usually a waste)
...and TS + TR rises higher and higher w/o much improvement of your team's abilities
Goblins can get some useful skills like ss, sure feet, sprint, dt - the rest is neglibile...
...and they die like flies - especially when you face a dorf team with tackle all around and some mb mixed in...
since you'll be giving away 1..3 HCs each game you can't really afford more than 1 niggler because of virus. loosing 1 Ogre is quite hard, but loosing 2 or 3 for next game is often desastrous for the team since you need 120K to replace them with very little winnings because of low ff and also very high TR
and until u can afford to replace the Ogres it becomes really hard to protect your Goblins 
sure, Ogres are decent bashers, but even there they're underdogs when compared to Orc, Khemri, Dwarf, CD and (at higher TS/TR) Chaos just because of complete lack of block, tackle and dp w/o rolling doubles. |
Last edited by treborius on %b %23, %2009 - %17:%Dec; edited 1 time in total |
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Thomcat
Joined: Jul 20, 2004
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Dec 23, 2009 - 17:51 |
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| Frankenstein wrote: | So much thread just because Orc Average lost one game against the much more experienced ogre-grandmaster Gary_Gygax.
So much fael, Fale, don't even know where to start.
If something is in dire need of higher TS then that would be your AV9 orcs. |
SPOT ON.
Have just replayed the game - How can anyone WHINE about loosing to ogres when that someone cannot even be bothered to attack the Ogres Goblins with the ball?
Actually he did not attack the goblins AT all (unless they where in the way) - so all he ever did to one goblin (and only 1) was to get it ko´ed.
On top of this - how is the "ogres only play injured teams" valid here ??
He starts out with 12 orcs (including 1 goblin) |
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uzkulak
Joined: Mar 30, 2004
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Dec 23, 2009 - 18:20 |
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I certainly dont agree that we should remove ogres. But, I do have sympathy with the poster's orignal point that you are most often matched up with them in BB when a couple of your own players are mng. Due to the TS "issue". Starting with 9 or 10 against reasonably developed ogres isnt great for most teams. At lower tr halfling and especially goblins (with chainsaw) can also be a nasty shock when you are expecting a recovery game.
However, this thread is about Ogres only. Playing against them when you have a full squad is pretty straightforward. When your team is teetering on the brink of retirement though, its a different story.
For me, the purpose of TS in BB is so more often than not you can expect a reasonably well balanced game, even when your team took some pain last time out. |
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Wraith
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Dec 23, 2009 - 18:53 |
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| CircularLogic wrote: | | Wraith wrote: | | CircularLogic wrote: | | My Highelves beg to differ, when they had their 17 game winning streak ended by ogres that just annihilated them within a few turns. |
And that would be any different vs a team full up with MB that happens to luck out, how exactly? What about them being ogres was the reason? Was it all the tackle they had? |
It wouldn`t be different. Just that ogres don`t have to luck out that much as other teams to archieve the same steamroll. |
You're right, they have to luck out even more... an extra dice roll before every action is an extra dice roll before every action. We all know that the difference between a good coach and a bad coach is, how well they limit the amount that the dice effect the game... generally through superior positioning, creating high probability rolls and not taking unnecessary chances. One out of every six rolls should end in failure, this means that probability-wise, the less rolls you make, the better.
Unless of course we're talking about new teams... that's about the only time ogres can easily steamroll an opponent with equal or slightly less luck than any other bashy team. |
_________________
Insanity, is merely the lack of fear... to act on your deepest, darkest thoughts. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Dec 23, 2009 - 18:53 |
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| treborius wrote: |
CL, try playing that roster in the Box.
i've seen you have a combined Ogre-record of 4/0/2, but didn't play more than 3 games with 1 team.
very good, but not much when compared to your apparently excellent coaching abilities
i'd be really curious to see how you performed with them and since you said they were durable i'd be really interested how you perform, once you hit TS=150 and above.
i've seen too many Ogre-teams retire in the box, because when they gain experience and you don't roll many more doubles than expected, all the skills that are available for you are: guard, po, mb, bt - errr, that's it (i'd gladly let go any further skillrolls after giving them guard, half the team bt and maybe 3xmulti-block and 3xpo on the team - the rest of the skills are usually a waste)
...and TS + TR rises higher and higher w/o much improvement of your team's abilities
Goblins can get some useful skills like ss, sure feet, sprint, dt - the rest is neglibile...
...and they die like flies - especially when you face a dorf team with tackle all around and some mb mixed in...
since you'll be giving away 1..3 HCs each game you can't really afford more than 1 niggler because of virus. loosing 1 Ogre is quite hard, but loosing 2 or 3 for next game is often desastrous for the team since you need 120K to replace them with very little winnings because of low ff and also very high TR
and until u can afford to replace the Ogres it becomes really hard to protect your Goblins
sure, Ogres are decent bashers, but even there they're underdogs when compared to Orc, Khemri, Dwarf, CD and (at higher TS/TR) Chaos just because of complete lack of block, tackle and dp w/o rolling doubles. |
I will NOT play ogres. The roster is just plain stupid. I won`t play with them anymore and I won`t play against them cept when I`m forced to.
The roster makes the luck of the ogre coach to the main deciding factor of the game. His rolls are decisive for both sides. The influence of coaching is greatly reduced in matches with ogres, because either you can do very little or you will win no matter what - against depending on the ogre luck.
There is whining about the ogre win%. It`s low - that`s true. But guess what: That`s intentional. Ogres were designed to be on par with gobbos and flings.
Then again, most coaches that play ogre care very little about the score line and much more about a growing team and lots of splatted opponents. They just play a different game then most of us and a loss is apparently not punishment enough. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Dec 23, 2009 - 18:57 |
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| Wraith wrote: | | CircularLogic wrote: | | Wraith wrote: | | CircularLogic wrote: | | My Highelves beg to differ, when they had their 17 game winning streak ended by ogres that just annihilated them within a few turns. |
And that would be any different vs a team full up with MB that happens to luck out, how exactly? What about them being ogres was the reason? Was it all the tackle they had? |
It wouldn`t be different. Just that ogres don`t have to luck out that much as other teams to archieve the same steamroll. |
You're right, they have to luck out even more... an extra dice roll before every action is an extra dice roll before every action. We all know that the difference between a good coach and a bad coach is, how well they limit the amount that the dice effect the game... generally through superior positioning, creating high probability rolls and not taking unnecessary chances. One out of every six rolls should end in failure, this means that probability-wise, the less rolls you make, the better.
Unless of course we're talking about new teams... that's about the only time ogres can easily steamroll an opponent with equal or slightly less luck than any other bashy team. |
On the contrary.. yes, they have to make one extra roll before each action, but on the otherhand, they can 2d block everyone with impunity, and easily create situations, where the opponent is denied any good block. So while they need a higher basic luck not to completely fail in a game, they need less luck for a steamroll, because once their handicaps are overcome by luck, they are absolutely brutal to play against with little to no skill needed to play them. |
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funnyfingers
Joined: Nov 13, 2005
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Dec 23, 2009 - 19:04 |
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I say Circular Logic and Wraith settle this on the field with a good ole Ogres vs High Elves match. |
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Wraith
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 23, 2009 - 19:14 |
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| CircularLogic wrote: | | On the contrary.. yes, they have to make one extra roll before each action, but on the otherhand, they can 2d block everyone with impunity, and easily create situations, where the opponent is denied any good block. So while they need a higher basic luck not to completely fail in a game, they need less luck for a steamroll, because once their handicaps are overcome by luck, they are absolutely brutal to play against with little to no skill needed to play them. |
It depends on the match-up. Dwarves have troll-slayers and tons of block/guard (oh and DP). Chaos have 4 CWs, horns all around and a BG (oh and DP). Orcs have 4 BoBs and a BG (oh and DP). Elves can dodge away and wait for a key BH roll to fail before attacking (oh and DP). Etc, etc, etc...
Also, saying that ogres can make 2dbs with impunity is a bit false... they have a 1 in 6 chance of making a 0db block and losing their TZ. |
_________________
Insanity, is merely the lack of fear... to act on your deepest, darkest thoughts. |
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treborius
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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| Posted:
Dec 23, 2009 - 19:24 |
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| CircularLogic wrote: | | There is whining about the ogre win%. It`s low - that`s true. |
hmmm, i've heard much whining by non-Ogre players, but not by those who play them (despite the low win-%)
i think you might have fallen in the trap of what some might call projection
| CircularLogic wrote: | | Then again, most coaches that play ogre care very little about the score line and much more about a growing team and lots of splatted opponents. They just play a different game then most of us and a loss is apparently not punishment enough. |
you come across pretty presumptous to me, how do you know other coaches intentions and motivations of playing a roster?
maybe they just like to play something that seems fun to them every once in a while instead of taking everything so seriously?  |
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uzkulak
Joined: Mar 30, 2004
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Dec 23, 2009 - 19:37 |
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8 or 9 guys with str5 and guard, plus a couple of side step / diving tackle / dirty player gobbos. Good ogre coaches will make it very hard for any of their players to be blocked given even or more likely superior numbers. They have their flaws, but it will take some pretty extraordinary luck to outbash them...
Anyway, the point is it does not make for a good match when one coach is down on players from before the start while the other team is ogres. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 23, 2009 - 19:46 |
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| treborius wrote: | | CircularLogic wrote: | | There is whining about the ogre win%. It`s low - that`s true. |
hmmm, i've heard much whining by non-Ogre players, but not by those who play them (despite the low win-%)
i think you might have fallen in the trap of what some might call projection |
Sure.. all the non-ogre players are whining about the low win% and call for a nerf of ogres? How does that make sense? It`s rather that the ogre-fraction is pointing out that ogres don`t win much as a counter-arguement against nerfs.
| treborius wrote: | | CircularLogic wrote: | | Then again, most coaches that play ogre care very little about the score line and much more about a growing team and lots of splatted opponents. They just play a different game then most of us and a loss is apparently not punishment enough. |
you come across pretty presumptous to me, how do you know other coaches intentions and motivations of playing a roster?
maybe they just like to play something that seems fun to them every once in a while instead of taking everything so seriously? |
Then tell me, why ogres are THAT MUCH MORE popular than the other 3 fun races? If the intention of a coach is to play something challenging, that includes alot of mayhem and chaos, then ogres should be picked just as often as vamps and less often than gobbos and flings (which are the archetypus of the whole fun/mayhem/challenge concept). Yet we see ogres having 50% more teams in the stats, than the other 3 fun races combined. The only difference is, that ogres are top level damage dealers and are quite tough. So looking at the numbers, out of the 144 ogre teams, maybe 44 teams exist, because their coach wanted a non-serious roster to have abit of fun. Which leaves 100 teams (=vast majority) to be picked because with abit of luck, they can cause this squish sound really often! |
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