Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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 Posted:
Mar 23, 2015 - 12:41 |
 
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| neverdodge wrote: | | Wreckage wrote: | | any known possible 'solution' would be worse than the problem |
I think the easier way to avoid it would be to simply to cap the injuries to BH, |
Q.E.D. |
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backelie
Joined: Jul 20, 2010
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| Posted:
Mar 23, 2015 - 13:00 |
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| Leilond wrote: | I really do not understand why someone want to force someone else toplay a match he doesn't want and doesn't like
For what you want, THER IS BLACK BOX
Ranked is designed to pick, to make people play the match they prefer, to avoid match they do not like
The isn't a problem to solve AT ALL. It's all as it should be, ranked to play exactly the match you prefer, Box to play randomly (most of all a random basher by the way) |
B-b-but you're having fun the wrong way!!!1!one!
Also if your elf team isn't playing vs a bashy team that is unfair to the coach who only plays as bashy teams themselves because, because... LOOK OVER THERE! |
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happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
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| Posted:
Mar 23, 2015 - 13:41 |
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| King_Ghidra wrote: | | Happygrue claimed teams have been thrown out of majors, in the new gamefinder era, for picking. Now if that is truly the case (and i'd love to know who those teams were) |
It's like you don't trust me or something! 
I didn't point out such teams because that would be bad form, but since you must know - it turns out you don't have to take my word for it. I don't know any other specific teams being thrown out, though it is my opinion that some others were very close to the line - I just don't recall the details of what did/didn't happen. I should also point out that I am not on the tournament staff, so my info is pieced together from, you know, blogs and sources available to the layperson so I could be wrong. 
I agree with your second point - which is part of how I got involved in that silly thread debacle in the first place. I really disliked the tone of the criticism, complete with linking "offensive" teams in such a manner. There are better ways to handle such complaints, if people have them. |
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Harad
Joined: May 11, 2014
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Mar 23, 2015 - 13:59 |
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Woah. By this yardstick I would report myself. My chaos ranked team has played the same opposition 4 times in the last 10 games (something I hasten to add I have never come close to doing with any other team). Now the fact that those games are interspersed with lots of other games with other races against other coaches and that this coach is about the only person who will offer my chaos a serious game makes it tricky.
It is the difficulty of principles in a rules based environment. Serious sports need serious rules because there can't be any room for different interpretations. Blood bowl is fun rather than a serious sport (unless anyone wants to challenge that), so we can live with the principles based approach, and only really address where it is damaging our collective fun. It doesn't seem that these elf teams are hurting the fun of most people too much, so I don't think much needs to be done.
I could of course be wrong. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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Mar 23, 2015 - 14:10 |
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| happygrue wrote: |
I didn't point out such teams because that would be bad form, but since you must know - it turns out |
That concerned me too. The comments suggest he played the same opponent twice for UI preparation tho. Trying to circumvent the fumbbl rules by using other teams to not violate the 1 in 10 games same opponent rules.
If that was the case I can see a pretty clear line that was breached there in terms of tourney prepping.
Not really a Ranked issue since not even the same people are responsible for deciding on tourney matters as on site rules.. |
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happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
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Mar 23, 2015 - 14:21 |
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Yep, that's basically it Wreckage. More than just "picked some games", but more of a tournament issue than a ranked issue. However I'd like to actually quote from the rules page again:
| Quote: | *You cannot play the same team against the same opposing team twice in a row
*You are expected to play (roughly) similarly rated teams. Long streaks of 'cherry-picking' for the purpose of gaining ranking or buffing your team will get your account frozen when you get caught. Just be reasonable. |
So breaking the rules in ranked was still a factor in the tournament staff's decision I'm sure.
The larger point is: how much rules lawyering are we going to do here? Surely the rule is "clear" in that people should not cherry pick matches as their primary way of getting games but strive for at least some diversity of opponents. Would a team be in trouble for ONLY playing each of it's first 100 games against High Elves and ONLY High Elves? I doubt it, as long many (most?) of the matches were something like fair. The rule is horribly vague for the purposes of enforcement, but perfect in that if we actually try to follow it it will create a better and more enjoyable experience for the community - as any good rule should IMO. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Mar 23, 2015 - 14:35 |
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PainState rolls out of bed, rubs his eyes and the grabs a cup of coffeee, plops down in front of his computer to find out when he will play his next UI match but something is different, he can feel something is amiss.
He hears in the background Justin Timberlake singing "what goes around...comes around."
Very strange indeed....opens up this thread and sits there amazed.
HOLY CRAP!!! I HAVE TIME WARPED BACK TO MARCH OF 2007!!!!!!!
MMMMMMM
That might not be so bad though....PainState tries to figure out how this will work to his advantage. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Mar 23, 2015 - 14:37 |
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@harad:
I would have thought that 4 games in 10 would be against the rules. You also managed to win all 4 games.
As far as I can tell the elf teams are not breaking the rules but your team is.
I thought the picking rule only applied to playing down in TV or playing an opponent too often. Not picking rookie coaches, not picking/avoiding certain races, not to avoiding certain skills.
If anyone wants to clarify that it would be nice. |
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happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
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Mar 23, 2015 - 14:53 |
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I doubt it can be clarified without creating other problems, because the whole point is to be able to find games... the rule is "Just be reasonable." which I take to mean, take the games you can get but be mindful not to be a tool. There are so many ways to avoid being reasonable (my grid filling zons have played dorfs twice already, why is that the only matchup you're offering me!?), I just wish we didn't need to haggle about what the rules are and just go back to focusing on that.
If limits on things as wacky as CR difference get put into play then we limit the number of matchups available while also introducing a reason to game the system by throwing games. I would love rules that encourage racial diversity (especially say, encouraging matching least played matchups in the box!) but would also tend to limit games available in ranked. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Mar 23, 2015 - 14:54 |
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| happygrue wrote: | | So breaking the rules in ranked was still a factor in the tournament staff's decision I'm sure. |
If I assess the situation correctly, I do think they made the right call but ultimatively rules are irrelevant, the only thing that matters is how the rules are interpreted. And in this case the matter of ranked rules/ tourney rules has unidentical interpreters. Which is also why the admins are bad sports for not letting us know about their decision making process.
Anywasy, to explain my point of view:
The prep games should be viewed on within a sphere on their own, rather than part of regular ranked games, meaning that playing the same opponent twice in there is violation of the 1 in 10 rule even if other teams were used in between those games.
The same would be true if say... one coach uses multiple teams but continually plays with one particular team against the same opponent. As one team sort of always represents its own sphere.
I assume you'd agree that if you look in a teams history and find him playing the same opponent 10 times in ranked that would not be within the spirit of the ranked rules, even if it is nowhere explicitly forbidden as long as you constantly play different opponents with your other teams.
The same is true for the case of a group of people only playing soft games amongst themselves in a group of 10 (cheater-ring) or so to circumvent the 1 in 10 rule.
In case of the tournament prepping the difference is that you are sort of stuck with only a sample size of 3 games.
Although I'd assume there is another element to it which is: Not only was the same person played multiple times but it also comes in conjunction with playing a particularly weak team.
So you have two elements. One is objective and if no violation at least a phasing of the rules, the other is a subjective element which implies intent to aquire an unfair advantage while prepping.
In a way you could argue that even if somebody broke condition one it would be fine as long as his actions are beyond any doubt: If he has played an opponent of equal or higher strengh. Simply because it is not clearly a rule violation.
But if the subjective element is added that implies that the purpose of these actions was indeed to gain an unfair advantage it is reasonable to argue that even if it is not within the violations of the ranked rules themselves, it is certainly against the spirit of design of the tournaments and the purpose of the prep games which should uphold the standard of competativeness like all games. And which, looking at the specific situation does not seem to be to true, at least if put in perspective with the environment they were done in.
Likewise I don't think anything in that ruling is particularly surprising. |
Last edited by Wreckage on %b %23, %2015 - %14:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Mar 23, 2015 - 14:54 |
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PainStae steps back from his computer to try to figure this out. When the rooms starts to spin and then slowly comes back to a stop. He looks at his computer and it has gone farther back into time!!!!!!
This discussion is as old as FUMBBL almost In fact this discussion might just be the first debate/discussion ever had on FUMBBL it is that old. |
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easilyamused
Joined: Jun 06, 2008
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| Posted:
Mar 23, 2015 - 14:54 |
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| King_Ghidra wrote: | | If the coaches accused have done nothing wrong, why aren't the admins sticking up for them and admonishing the accusers? |
Just because you don't see it happening doesn't mean it is not. |
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happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
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| Posted:
Mar 23, 2015 - 15:00 |
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@Harad, while playing the same team back to back is against the rules, if you're using GF then I think you're off the hook, as that is supposed to eliminate the need for coaches to be checking their team pages and just click the green button anyway! I know the rules were relaxed to allow more GF matches and so I guess stuff like this sneaks in. But IMO playing well coached Skaven with your chaos is reasonable. We should all avoid back to back games but sometimes that happens anyway (entering a tournament or smack for example). |
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Kam
Joined: Nov 06, 2012
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| Posted:
Mar 23, 2015 - 15:08 |
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| happygrue wrote: | | The larger point is: how much rules lawyering are we going to do here? Surely the rule is "clear" in that people should not cherry pick matches as their primary way of getting games but strive for at least some diversity of opponents. Would a team be in trouble for ONLY playing each of it's first 100 games against High Elves and ONLY High Elves? I doubt it, as long many (most?) of the matches were something like fair. The rule is horribly vague for the purposes of enforcement, but perfect in that if we actually try to follow it it will create a better and more enjoyable experience for the community - as any good rule should IMO. |
Yup, I definitely agree. It's like being drunk in the street. It's prohibited, but as long as you're not bothering anyone or doing strange things, you can do it: cops won't control you (at least where I live). Nobody said you couldn't pick in Ranked. Just don't exaggerate.
And as said when I posted the UI stats, most Elf coaches are not extreme pickers. But the problem is, and we can see it in this topic, that extreme cherry picking isn't shaming material anymore. Instead, coaches come here and defend that idea, calling it "strategy" or "doing-what-I-want-I-don't-care-what-you-think-go-play-elsewhere".
I've had a break from FUMBBL. IRC was already dying, but it's gotten even worse (and IRC socializing played a big part in the fight against extreme cherry picking). Most Ranked coaches I knew now play at least partially in the Box, making the minority of R extreme pickers more important. One can say what he wants. Once can pretend there is no problem. But if so many coaches have moved to the Box despite its flaws (silent coaches, minmaxers, lack of games at certain hours, etc), there is a reason. Could it be that maybe, maybe, they're tired of the pickers in Ranked (and of the fact that practice has been trivialized)? I'm just asking... |
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Last edited by Kam on %b %23, %2015 - %15:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Mar 23, 2015 - 15:09 |
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Here is what I think is interesting about this discussion
| Kam wrote: | Just some stats for the Light Qualifier:
a bunch of stats and stuff was inserted here.
---------------------
Not much to say about those numbers. Some of those teams should be banned IMHO, or at least receive a big warning, but I was expecting much more picking. What disappoints me the most is the overall youth of the teams. |
This was one of the posts that Kam lit the fuse on this powder keg.
Now I find it interesting that he pointed out in his observations that he expected to see a huge sampling that was obvious of "picking" and he only found a few offending teams in his 20 team sample.
I think if you took a sampling of 20, lets say Human teams, you would find 2-4 teams that would be called "pickers".
Same goes for any grouping of 20-30 teams regardless of race of team. "picking" is a coach thing, not a race specific dynamic. It is not just the elves that pick, all races pick. heck one of the biggest "picks" is Nurgle picking on their red headed step child, Chaos.
It is the small group of coaches who "pick" with wanton brazen on the site that offends other coaches. Not me of course, my skin is way to thick at this point to even really care.  
So, Kam is perplexed at the lack of picking in his elf sample size and it sets off a explosion on the forums about how "picking" inside the elven ranks is at the highest level in recorded time. |
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Last edited by PainState on %b %23, %2015 - %15:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
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