the_Sage
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
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 Posted:
Jul 19, 2011 - 12:30 |
 
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This is a forum thread related to the rush and pass league. This is a league all about fast touchdowns, ball handling/sacking, and no bashing. Basically, it's like elfballing in ranked without having to feel guilty. =D
If you're interested in joining the league, visit our page: http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=group&op=view&group=6738
If you're not (interested) in the league, please refrain from discussing in this thread. =)
It's important to remember that the most important aspect of rush and pass is one of mentality. We aim to create an atmosphere of friendly coach banter, where we focus on ball playing over team destruction, but also where we commisserate with an opponent's bad luck and applaud it when their risky plays work.
In addition to this point of mentality, there are also several restrictions the league puts on its coaches and teams. These have to do with both which actions we may take in-game, which skills and inducements are allowed, and which races are allowed to join the league. All of these will be addressed below.
So: in this forum thread we'll try to reformulate R&P as best we can. Let's do this as follows: for every rule that's caused issues in rush and pass, I'll make a proposal how I'd like to see it changed.
Anyone who thinks they have a better idea, or something to add, please feel free to post and propose an alternative rule, or an addition to the proposed change.
After we've taken some time to collect ideas, each issue will be put to the vote between all league members, with the options for things to remain as they are, or any alternative proposed. |
Last edited by the_Sage on %b %15, %2012 - %17:%Apr; edited 6 times in total |
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the_Sage
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
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| Posted:
Jul 19, 2011 - 12:30 |
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Voting tally:
Gratuitous blocks voting options:
- Keep the rule as it is: no gratuitous (vague)
(Rumanski)
- Make it apply only to turn 8 and 16 (execpting OTTD)
(the Sage, emilfrojd, badgertheking, cowhead, KingKlutz, Dalfort, SkavenLordVinshqueek, Vesikannu)
- Remove it altogether
(bghandras)
LoS blocks voting options:
-Keep as is
(the Sage, emilfrojd, cowhead, KingKlutz, Rumanski, SkavenLordVinshqueek, Vesikannu)
-Disallow touching startup formations
()
Crowdsurfing voting options:
-Keep the rule as it is (vague)
()
-Allow surfing with 2 pushes, but no more (except BC)
(the Sage, KingKlutz, Dalfort, SkavenLordVinshqueek, Vesikannu)
-Disallow surfing (except BC or cage, hard definition)
(emilfrojd, cowhead, Rumanski)
-Allow all surfing
(bghandras, badgertheking)
Stalling voting options:
-Keep the rule as it is (must score if safely possible, just don't stall: vague)
(the Sage, emilfrojd, badgertheking, cowhead, KingKlutz, Dalfort, Rumanski, SkavenLordVinshqueek, Vesikannu)
-Remove the stalling rule but make halves last only 4 turns.
()
-Introduce mandatory punting if a team has the ball 4 turns without scoring.
(bghandras)
-Disallow rerolls on blocks.
()
-Disallow selecting the block skill.
()
-The ball must move 3 squares forward every turn.
()
Inducement voting options:
-Keep the rule as it is (no wizard, no stab, no piling on)
(bghandras, badgertheking, cowhead, SkavenLordVinshqueek)
-Allow the wizard and allow stars who have optional hurting skills (but don't allow their use)
(the Sage, emilfrojd, KingKlutz, Dalfort, Rumanski, Vesikannu)
Scoring system voting options:
-Keep as is, TD against makes no matter, only total TD and w/d/l.
(bghandras)
-In addition to current system, award cumulative TD difference as a bonus to the winner (so 1 for 1 pt difference, 3 for 2, 6 for 3)
(the Sage, KingKlutz, Dalfort, badgertheking, SkavenLordVinshqueek, Vesikannu)
-Rugby rules: Winner bonus for 3+ difference, both bonus for 4+ total TDs, loser bonus for 1 TD difference against winners' 4+ TD
()
-Multiply TD and TD difference by w(3) /d(2) /l(1)
Races allowed voting options:
-Keep the list as it is (rats, frogs, elves of all sorts, humans and zons)
()
-Allow a set of likely races (pact, underworld, lizardmen, (vampire?)) in.
(the Sage, emilfrojd, badgertheking, cowhaed, KingKlutz, Dalfort, Vesikannu)
-Create an experimental side-league for slower races, and allow teams from there to join R&P on a per-team basis
(badgertheking, the Sage, cowhead, KingKlutz, Dalfort, SkavenLordVinshqueek)
-Allow all races in
(Rumanski)
Limit guard voting options:
-Keep as is (no limit)
(badgertheking, Vesikannu)
-Limit to # of guard per team (likely 4)
(emilfrojd, SkavenLordVinshqueek)
League structure voting options:
-Keep as is (casual games only)
()
-Introduce scheduled seasonal league play (per-season sign-up, complementary to casual games)
(the Sage, emilfrojd, cowhead, KingKlutz, Dalfort, Rumanski, SkavenLordVinshqueek, Vesikannu) |
Last edited by the_Sage on %b %26, %2012 - %15:%Apr; edited 27 times in total |
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the_Sage
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
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| Posted:
Jul 19, 2011 - 12:32 |
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Suggestions for in-game rules:
There are four rules that govern in-game behavior in R&P, relating to. Ordered from vague to clear, these are
-no gratuitous blocks
-no crowdsurfing
-no stalling
-no fouling
The problem is that interpreting these rules can be arbitrary. This becomes an issue especially when one player thinks he can safely stay in a tackle zone or on the side line because he may not be blocked/surfed because of these rules, when the other player thinks the rules don't apply in this situation. These issues create unnecessary rules conflict in a league that is intended to be friendly.
The other rules are 'no stalling' and 'no fouling'. These don't cause issues.
Gratuitous blocks
issue: the rules for what makes a gratuitous block are somewhat vague. As such, whether or not such a rule is violated becomes very hard to judge.
Current rule: You may not make a block if it has become impossible for that block to change the TD outcome of this drive (i.e. stop an opponent TD or help your own TD). That includes blocking on turn 8 or 16 (except for OTTD attempts).
Vague areas are blocks near your offensive endzone when the opponent has an almost guaranteed escape to score next turn: they can only affect this drive if you stop the TD, so you should try to stop the TD before making those blocks.
Proposed alternative: Remove the rule altogether. These blocks make up a very minor part of the game, but they are at the center of most rules discussions. Without this rule there will still be no bashing skills, and coaches can still choose to be the gentleman and not make those blocks (encouraged but not enforced).
Crowdsurfing
issue: The rules for surfing are also vague. This is the second-greatest cause for rules issues. In addition, the rules for surfing really harm tactical sideline play. (as there is no risk to moving to the sides, you can easily blitz the flank to get past.
current rule: Crowdsurfing is not permitted unless it's directly related to a TD.
Proposed alternative: Crowdsurfing is permitted as long as it is achieved with one or two pushes (frenzy counts as two). Thus you're not allowed to go out of your way to make a crowdsurf, but the usual bloodbowl sideline balance remains intact.
Exception: surfing the ballcarrier is always permitted.
Stalling
potential issue: The rules for stalling could be abused by choosing not to make an almost guaranteed score.
current rule: Stalling is disallowed: If you can score without rolling dice, you must score. However, you may still hand off or pass.
I don't want to change this rule. Just don't stall. This hasn't been an issue yet, and I don't expect it to be. =)
proposed alternatives (by bghandras):
-Remove the stalling rule but make halves last only 4 turns, or
-Introduce mandatory punting if a team has the ball 4 turns without scoring.
Fouling
Not ambiguous at all. Fouling = no.
pre-game: Inducements:
Issue: The current inducement options are too restrictive, making large TV gaps worse than they need to be.
Current rules: Any inducement with claw, mb, po, or stab (did I miss anything?) is not allowed. This includes the wizard.
Proposed alternative: Star players with claw or mb are not allowed. Star players with po or stab are allowed, but the po and stab skills may not be used. The wizard is allowed (even though it has mighty blow, its use is not about removing players, but about freeing up the ball. As such, I think it's very rush and pass (similar to surfing a ball carrier).)
Suggestions for league/season systems:
Scoring system
Issue: For the most part, I like the scoring system that we have. However, it actually rewards letting your opponent score quickly, which is not what we are striving for. In my opinion, spending 4 turns getting the ball from the opponent and scoring a counter should be worth more than spending 2 turns defending poorly, and 2 then turns attacking well.
Current rule: Win: 3 pts, draw: 1pt, + 1 pt per TD.
Proposed alternative Win: 3 pts, draw: 1pt, + 1 pt per TD, + 1 pt per TD difference. This way high scoring games will still be more rewarded than low scoring games, but winning by a larger margin would be rewarded as well (so for instance winning 3-0 would be rewarded more highly than winning 4-3).
League structure: Since I've joined R&P I've seen three types of play: open (ranked-style), unscheduled season (round robin with no order limitations) and KO cups.
The current open (ranked-style) system is fine as it is, but not scheduling games has the downside of not keeping players active. I would propose we keep the current open system as an ongoing pool of teams who can always play against each other (as in ranked), but in addition host mini-seasons for a subset of these teams (similar to how normal league seasons are often run).
The format I would propose to use (once we have a few more active R&Pers again) is to have two parallel (independent) seasons: low TV and high TV (exact levels dependent on availability). Each coach who is interested may sign up one team per season. Then these teams play either a full round robin (in case of few teams) or a swiss (in case of many teams). Then the top 4 teams (as based on R&P points, see above) proceed to a knockout cup to determine the season winner.
Teams allowed:
Currently the league allows elves, rats, frogs, humans and amazons. The reason for this is that other teams tend towards a very solidifying play style whereas R&P promotes lots of passes, with the 2TTD as the golden standard.
Proposed alternatives:
-Kingklutz: Widen the team range within certain limits (chaos, lizardmen (Nelphine), chaos pact, Khemri (the_cursed_one)?
-Potentially: open the league for all teams, limited only by skill selection? (perhaps introducing a maximum # of guard, disallowing block on (starting) ST4+, or making a minimum of 4 turns to score).
I'm personally on the fence about this one. On the plus side, I would love to see a team developed like Rabe's agilty monsters (ie balling dwarves). On the downside, I'd hate to see conventional dwarf teams, but built without the mighty blow. (11 guard stand firm? That's NOT R&P) |
Last edited by the_Sage on %b %21, %2012 - %00:%Apr; edited 5 times in total |
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the_Sage
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 14, 2012 - 14:52 |
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The forum is now open for additional proposals/proposed alterations for one week, until Saturday April 21st.
After that there will be time to vote for one week, until Saturday April 28th. |
Last edited by the_Sage on %b %19, %2012 - %12:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 14, 2012 - 16:04 |
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Tum te tum; I would be curious to know if lizards could get into this league? (Without a krox and with appropriate Saurrii skill choices) |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 14, 2012 - 22:11 |
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Out of the box suggestions:
1. Play 4 or 5 turns each half. Then there would be absolutely no interest to stall.
2. No change in turn sequence, but you need to PUNT the ball if you cant score in the 4th round of posession. (PUNT is soft rule here, but could be explored morespecifically if there is interest.) |
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the_Sage
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 14, 2012 - 22:26 |
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| Nelphine wrote: | | Tum te tum; I would be curious to know if lizards could get into this league? (Without a krox and with appropriate Saurrii skill choices) |
Interesting suggestion. To be honest I could see it (and other races, such as chaos) work here as well. I'll add it to the list of things to vote on. KingKlutz was working on a longer list of teams but got rather busy with real life.
| bghandras wrote: | Out of the box suggestions:
1. Play 4 or 5 turns each half. Then there would be absolutely no interest to stall.
2. No change in turn sequence, but you need to PUNT the ball if you cant score in the 4th round of posession. (PUNT is soft rule here, but could be explored morespecifically if there is interest.) |
Way ahead of you bghandras (for your first point that is), was already under suggestions, with your name on it. =) |
Last edited by the_Sage on %b %14, %2012 - %23:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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emilfrojd
Joined: Oct 12, 2009
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| Posted:
Apr 14, 2012 - 22:59 |
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I like the idea of having Chaos Pact and similar teams without Big Guys. Would be fun to have all the fun types mutations with easy access. |
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the_Sage
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 14, 2012 - 23:11 |
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| emilfrojd wrote: | | I like the idea of having Chaos Pact and similar teams without Big Guys. Would be fun to have all the fun types mutations with easy access. |
Yeah, players like Reschs would do well in rush and pass, I'd think. |
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emilfrojd
Joined: Oct 12, 2009
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| Posted:
Apr 14, 2012 - 23:13 |
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I like to have the 8 turn game but I haven't experienced any stalling yet, most people even do the gfi to get the td early.
I don't see a big problem with the block rules at the moment. Haven't felt a problem with it.
Can't think of anything more at the moment. |
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the_Sage
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 15, 2012 - 00:06 |
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| emilfrojd wrote: | I like to have the 8 turn game but I haven't experienced any stalling yet, most people even do the gfi to get the td early.
I don't see a big problem with the block rules at the moment. Haven't felt a problem with it.
Can't think of anything more at the moment. |
Well, people in R&P just don't stall, or really disagree about the stalling rules. People do (sometimes) disagree about what constitutes a bad block or surf. When those situations leads to lost players or tempers, it's bad for R&P, so preventing them seems like a good thing. |
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Igvy
Joined: Apr 29, 2007
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Apr 15, 2012 - 00:38 |
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Make TD worth more for a shorter drive. |
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Dalfort
Joined: Jun 23, 2008
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| Posted:
Apr 15, 2012 - 00:44 |
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| the_Sage wrote: | | emilfrojd wrote: | I like to have the 8 turn game but I haven't experienced any stalling yet, most people even do the gfi to get the td early.
I don't see a big problem with the block rules at the moment. Haven't felt a problem with it.
Can't think of anything more at the moment. |
Well, people in R&P just don't stall, or really disagree about the stalling rules. People do (sometimes) disagree about what constitutes a bad block or surf. When those situations leads to lost players or tempers, it's bad for R&P, so preventing them seems like a good thing. |
+1
the vagueness of Gratuitous is the problem, imho, as any block I (for example) would throw is because I believe it to be required, thus not Gratuitous. I am not a team destroyer in most formats of the game and R&P is all about avoiding the prospect even more (Something the agreement to the rules strengthened).
The proposed changes/clarifications are encouraging me to return (time permitting and possibly other L commitments being toned down :p).
Take care Dalfort |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 15, 2012 - 02:37 |
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I can't really say much on the block rule, as I'm a bit of a block-monger (see Shindahl for a perfect example: #7 all time skink blocker, and doesn't have block or any strength boosts), but I'd probably lean toward allowing blocks as long as you have no bashy skills, and you must score if safe before blocking.
Crowdsurfing; generally just say 'no' unless the ball carrier, or someone directly guarding the ball carrier (so sidelines players are safe, unless right in the middle of the action; what that means would need to be defined but I'd say: people in a typical cage can be surfed, people in a loose cage (if that person wasn't there, then you could get a blitz on the carrier) could be surfed, or something like that).
Stalling: I think if you can define this well enough, both the above two points will mostly get solved. So go for something like: Every turn the ball must make at least 3 yards forward progress; failure to do so for 2 turns requires you to pass the ball in such a manner that the enemy can make an interception attempt (even if that requires passing to an empty square); turnovers due to skulling or failing a dodge etc count as failing to move forward if the ball carrier has not already moved.
As a further note, you could add in a rule along the lines of: turnover due to skulling a block (not a blitz) would count as failure to move forward, even if the ball moved forward that turn already. This would discourage gratuitous blocking.
Of course, I haven't actually played in the league, so feel free to ignore, dismiss, modify, change or laugh at these suggestions as you feel appropriate.
On the topic of me joining: What are the activity requirements for the league? I didn't see anything about how often a coach would need to play to be considered active. |
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Overhamsteren
Joined: May 27, 2006
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Apr 15, 2012 - 04:21 |
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I am certainly interested in this league(noticed it some months ago) but yeah the blocking rules put me off, way too open to discussion.
As for surfing, well I don't really get it, if you don't want to be surfed keep of the sidelines or defend the guy on the sideline from a surf. This league sounds like it's a lot about positioning and the sidelines add a great element to blood bowl positioning.
Also the lack of races available seems weird, I mean when big guys and damage skills are banned playing anything but elves just seems like handicapping yourself for fun and for the challenge so seems obvious to allow.
If you are worried about ST4+ you could disallow those players from taking block. A limit on guard for all teams could maybe also be needed.
The suggestion to advance the ball a minimum distance each turn sounds like a great idea, would be very hard for the 'bash' teams to cage then.
Also maximum 4 turns per drive sounds good, end drive by passing to an opposing player not in a tackle zone or some such.
With no damage skills, requirement for advancing and 4 turn drives I don't really see any reason for rules about blocking, the game is already pushed far towards quick touchdowns.
Well I am very interested to see what you end up with.  |
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Thanks to the BBRC for all the great work you did. |
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