xnoelx
Joined: Jun 05, 2012
|
 Posted:
Oct 29, 2014 - 23:12 |
 
|
| DukeTyrion wrote: | So, are we going to end up with the silly situation where, in this situation;
1800tv Dwarves
1200tv Elf
1800tv Claw
1200tv Claw
The Elves would be matched against the 1800tv Dwarves, rather than the 1200tv Chaos?
I have seen nothing yet about getting rid of the stupid 800tv difference matches. |
No, we aren't. Assuming they are all 30+ game teams, a 3% nudge won't counter that TV difference. |
_________________
 Nerf Ball 2014 |
|
koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
|
| Posted:
Oct 29, 2014 - 23:23 |
|
|
mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
|
| Posted:
Oct 29, 2014 - 23:25 |
|
| koadah wrote: | | DukeTyrion wrote: |
I have seen nothing yet about getting rid of the stupid 800tv difference matches. |
We're not planning to get rid of them. But, the more teams in the Box the less often they will happen. |
Also, if you activate more teams across a wide spread of TV it's less likely to happen. But hey, not everyone wants to do that. |
|
|
harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
|
| Posted:
Oct 29, 2014 - 23:31 |
|
| huff wrote: | | harvestmouse wrote: | | On topic though, how is TV a better match maker than recent WDL record? I see no reason why it would be, and blackbox confirms to me my opinion. Most naysayers are those with great records. |
Well going from a TV based MM to a recent record would just change the dynamic, for better or worse I couldn't say, but I can say I like the sound of playing relativly close TV games (outside of stunty teams) compared to to say a 130TV team on a 5 game win streak vs a 200 TV team on a 5 game winstreak. And with no ceiling for the scheduler that matchup is possible if both teams have played 30 or more games. |
Not necessarily. If, you give awards for winning. Or/And you make it divisional (visible or invisible). So winning moves you up, and losing moves you down. In this case you couldn't play such a game, unless the low TV team was fairly old.
However, I'd also advocate 'changes in TV' being part of the match maker too. So if that team was winning and staying stable at 130k, then fine, let them play whomever. However if they won but took a large cut in TV. Then they'd be given an easier match up. |
|
|
PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
|
| Posted:
Oct 30, 2014 - 00:03 |
|
| BillBrasky wrote: | | Please stop responding to this dumb thread :p |
BUT...BUT...Chirster just threw gas on top of this topic.
I suspect a few coaches have lit matches.
 |
_________________
Comish of the:  |
|
Endzone
Joined: Apr 01, 2008
|
| Posted:
Oct 30, 2014 - 00:26 |
|
[quote="DukeTyrion"]So, are we going to end up with the silly situation where, in this situation;
1800tv Dwarves
1200tv Elf
1800tv Claw
1200tv Claw
The Elves would be matched against the 1800tv Dwarves, rather than the 1200tv Chaos?
quote]
Of course not. What is being suggested throughout is a SMALL tweak to the scheduler - not matching big three together every time. In your example the 1800s play each other but say:
1800TV c dwarf
1700TV h elf
1800TV w elf
1700TV chaos
Maybe the elves would play each other. I am sure Christer would set it very sensibly, maybe in the above example the ratings would need to be even closer - depends exactly what Chriser thinks would be right. |
|
|
cameronhawkins
Joined: Aug 19, 2011
|
| Posted:
Oct 30, 2014 - 00:49 |
|
I think the idea of tinkering the scheduler into a high bias towards mirror-matches whenever possible is actually a deviously simple way of solving many of the recurring problems people have with Blackbox.
Here are the reasons I think that:
1) It encourages diversity, but only to coaches who already value diversity. If you don't care which race you play against, then very little will change for you. But if you’re getting tired of so many Dwarf matches, then maybe the time has come for a change…
2) Within applicable scheduling groups, it will cut the prevalence of Bash vs Non-Bash significantly. This means much less complaining coming from the mouths of non-Bashers, whether about attrition or monotony.
3) It increases the attrition against Bash teams, which are otherwise notoriously difficult to damage. As many coaches have pointed out–- this is more or less just a basic design flaw; access to damage skills always coincides with high strength, high armor, regeneration, or some combination of the three, which tends to make killers seem to last forever.
4) For good or for bad, you're giving coaches a little push towards the kind of game they prefer. The coaches that love blood and don't care where it comes from will rejoice. The seasoned Elf-ballers will finally get to try their game against others with the same tack. This should increase overall satisfaction in Box matches.
5) It will make the Box a more competitive environment, in both perception and practice, due to the more regular comparison of teams of the same race.
––By perception I mean this: As a Lizard coach, I would love to see how well the Roughriders line up against other Lizard Box teams, but I currently rarely see any. Playing against Orcs is fun, for sure, but it's not much of a measurement of who's the boss of among Lizards. After all, what's a more impressive feat–– a Dwarf team with 10/0/0 record against Amazons, or a Dwarf team with a 10/0/0 record against other Dwarves? Inevitably, some teams would soon acquire infamy as the dominant teams within their respective races. For example, Murderby Numbers vs the WMDs or Les Vent-Marcheurs–– if they played each other more often, if would become much more apparent who is top dog among Chaos teams, and that sort of visibility would give a bit more ‘celebrity-status’ to getting to that top spot.
––By practice I mean this: It would encourage more streamlined builds for the purposes of winning a mirror-matches. In some ways, this might be a bad thing (as some novelty skills might be thrown to the wayside). However, with the removal of Traits and the addition of the new LRB5 skills, the skill base is already much broader than it was when steps were first taken to discourage mirror-matches in Blackbox, so I doubt there would be much downside to this.
7) Racially speaking, the overall fairness of matches will go up, because (all other things being equal) you will be playing against a team with a 0% statistical advantage. The corollary to this is that––without the wide swings that racial mismatches can create––individual coach skill will play a larger role in determining the outcome of a match. This is only a negative thing if you’re a poor coach… but last I checked, Blackbox was explicitly billed as ‘not for newcomers’, so this fits perfectly into the Blackbox concept.
8 ) One thing that people seem to be often be disparaging of is the type of coach who plays purely for his own fun, at the expense (or so it is often stated) of the other coach’s fun or the integrity of the environment. The counterargument to this that you can’t control what your opponent finds fun, so the best you can do is try to have you own fun and hope for the best. But it shouldn’t matter which side you fall on here–– If you think playing against bash is fun, then you’re no worse off. If you hate playing against bash, then you’re also no worse off. The two groups who would be disappointed are (1) people who play a race that they know is unpleasant to play against, and (2) non-bashers who love playing against bash. The former doesn’t seem like a group that anyone should have any sympathy for, while the latter seems non-existent.
9) Since mirror-matches are (usually) tilted in favor of the higher-TV team, staying in low-TV sweet spots will be discouraged. This is because your matches with largest TV-variance will likely be mirror-matches, where you will want to have as much weight as possible.
10) It makes the metagame much more interesting, by encouraging coaches to find new ways to play teams.
Here’s what I mean by that: Right now an Elf team with a competent leaping sacker can dominate most other Box teams, because those other teams are built to counteract bash. Along that same track, Elves build with a lot of Fend and Guard so that they can withstand that bash better. But with a higher prevalence of mirror-matches, that same Elf team might now be better served by employing more Tackle and Mighty Blow, since this will be much more valuable when facing other Elves. Thus, if there’s a greater prevalence of Bash-vs-Bash and Agile-vs-Agile, teams will need to put more thought into how to beat their own strategies. You might, then, see things like a wall of Fend Beastmen (anticipating other bashers) or Passblock on a Witch Elf (to counter other Elves). Your building strategy would center around not only what is best for the present environment, but also what would put you one step ahead of your racial cohorts.
11) It gives coaches more individual agency over their own fun. For example, let’s say that I start playing Slann in the Box. Then, two weeks later everyone seems to be playing Slann, and I'm getting sick of facing them. Before, all I could do is complain on the forums “Blackbox sux! Too many frogz!” or “U guys R being a buncha A-holes! Quit ruining my box!” With this change, there is at least some action that I can take, all by myself, which will make me less likely to face unpleasant opponents, which is stop playing as Slann. Should I have to do this? Maybe not. But at least it's something I can do if I have to.
Obviously, the flip-side of this is the argument that this runs counter to the basic concept of Blackbox, which is randomness match-ups. However, this is an utterly specious argument–– Blackbox has never been random. It follows a very defined non-random formula, and always has. No one wants random match-ups. Not remotely. We’re all on the same side here––we’re just having a very small disagreement about exactly how much randomness is the right amount.
12) If nothing else, on a very basic level of personal culpability, it puts the purported negative consequences of what are widely considered unpleasant races, builds, or play-styles squarely on the shoulders of those who propagate them.
Tired of playing against Chaos? Notice how playing against that 1-Turning Gutter Runner kinda turns the game into a joke? Just realizing now that facing an Undead team that grinds and fouls for 7 turns kinda blows? Yeah... Join the club, dude. |
|
|
PaddyMick
Joined: Jan 03, 2012
|
| Posted:
Oct 30, 2014 - 11:34 |
|
Very good post cameronhawkins.
I agree with all the points you have made and I think the only argument against it is that some coaches say they find mirror matches boring. They could be persuaded to try it though, maybe. |
|
|
xnoelx
Joined: Jun 05, 2012
|
| Posted:
Oct 30, 2014 - 11:40 |
|
The thing there though is that the proposed change would only very slightly increase mirror matches (and of course, only slightly produce any of cameron's effects). And it will only increase mirrors amongst those teams that already get a lot of them anyway. So any difference would be practically negligible to them. |
_________________
Nerf Ball 2014 |
|
JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
|
| Posted:
Oct 30, 2014 - 11:46 |
|
This whole thread seems like vegetarians thinking of ways to reduce the meat in steak when they already have a vegetarian option...
If you want to pick your opponent play ranked.
If you want to play infinite mirror matches play ranked.
If you want to never play a mirror match play ranked.
If you want to build a team to 2k tv regardless of race play ranked.
If you want to play competitively play box.
Please don't neuter box to appease people who already have ranked available to them. |
_________________
Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
|
koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
|
| Posted:
Oct 30, 2014 - 12:48 |
|
|
JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
|
| Posted:
Oct 30, 2014 - 12:55 |
|
It depends on the % applied.
And the intention is to give soft teams easier teambuilding than cpomb teams, in terms of opposition faced at least. |
_________________
Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
|
Calcium
Joined: Apr 08, 2007
|
| Posted:
Oct 30, 2014 - 12:58 |
|
| JimmyFantastic wrote: | This whole thread seems like vegetarians thinking of ways to reduce the meat in steak when they already have a vegetarian option...
If you want to pick your opponent play ranked.
If you want to play infinite mirror matches play ranked.
If you want to never play a mirror match play ranked.
If you want to build a team to 2k tv regardless of race play ranked.
If you want to play competitively play box.
Please don't neuter box to appease people who already have ranked available to them. |
This is about the most sensible post I have seen in 52 pages of pixel hugging crying anti clawPOMB nonsense.....This place would be much poorer with 'ranked part deux' division instead of the box as it is...... |
_________________
 |
|
Balle2000
Joined: Sep 25, 2008
|
| Posted:
Oct 30, 2014 - 13:13 |
|
| Calcium wrote: | | JimmyFantastic wrote: | This whole thread seems like vegetarians thinking of ways to reduce the meat in steak when they already have a vegetarian option...
If you want to pick your opponent play ranked.
If you want to play infinite mirror matches play ranked.
If you want to never play a mirror match play ranked.
If you want to build a team to 2k tv regardless of race play ranked.
If you want to play competitively play box.
Please don't neuter box to appease people who already have ranked available to them. |
This is about the most sensible post I have seen in 52 pages of pixel hugging crying anti clawPOMB nonsense.....This place would be much poorer with 'ranked part deux' division instead of the box as it is...... |
These two posts eminently shows your lack of understanding for the current discussion. But it's your loss, as it's hard to take you seriously - beyond 'seriously misinformed' that is. |
|
|
koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
|
| Posted:
Oct 30, 2014 - 13:17 |
|
| JimmyFantastic wrote: | It depends on the % applied.
And the intention is to give soft teams easier teambuilding than cpomb teams, in terms of opposition faced at least. |
If the % is too big then you would get a lot of huge TV gaps unless there was a huge influx of non CPOMB teams. People don't like those too often either.
Wussballers are still going to meet their fair share of CBOMBers.
Sorry dude. You may have to start wasting skills on tackle.
| Calcium wrote: |
This is about the most sensible post I have seen in 52 pages of pixel hugging crying anti clawPOMB nonsense.....This place would be much poorer with 'ranked part deux' division instead of the box as it is...... |
Do you basher boys have no stones?
A person might think that you like to dish it out but can't take it. |
_________________
O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
|
|
|
| |
Gnomes are trash
Search
