Fortis
Joined: Mar 19, 2009
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 Posted:
Nov 24, 2014 - 08:07 |
 
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"Pact would work better, or more as planned anyway, if the marauders were 70K instead of 50K. this would limit the min/maxing and coaches would maybe take the big guys and play them as a regular team. Of course, in a scheduled (L) or challenge (R) league the min/max hardly matters, so probably it's just the Box environment that makes Pact seem broken."
An unskilled human for as much as an elf would somehow fix something? Just because there's a few hundred of us that smash out a bajillion games doesn't mean the game should be balanced for our style of play specifically. It's just as valid to say that it should work right in a 7 game league format.
And yeah, the pact represent the all-stars, I like having the big guys in there because it makes a varied team that nicely can be built to fluffily represent the all stars. Maybe a Chaos Warrior and a Dwarf would be nice too, but it's probably a bit good if that's the case. It's just the same as having the pro elves in there to nicely represent the 2nd ed elves.
Anyway, the 3 extra teams were an afterthought. 2 big guys was "more" and so fitted with the stunty teams. I think having 3 in pact is fine and that the reason goblins didn't get 3 is because the CRP team were worried (maybe unduly) about all big guy LOS's. Pact certainly aren't too good in almost any environment other than the twisted environment that is min/max box. And that has nothing to do with the big guys. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Nov 24, 2014 - 08:44 |
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Pact are fine. They are a bit rubbish tbh and the more big guys they have the worse they are. 1 is fine any more is a liability. The marauders shouldn't have S or P access though. That's just dumb. |
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RedDevilCG
Joined: Jan 09, 2010
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| Posted:
Nov 24, 2014 - 08:56 |
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Personally, I'd like to see Underworld get to big guy parity with the other stunty teams and get access to two Warp Trolls! |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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I agree with Fortis and Garion. I like that Pact are there to represent the Chaos teams I used to play in 3rd edition (with lots of different stars) and early LRB (with allies and mixed races). I agree they'd be cooler with a CDorf or a Beastman/Warrior thrown in too. As they are though they're just a more interesting/less effective chaos team. |
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spubbbba
Joined: Jul 31, 2006
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Nov 24, 2014 - 09:39 |
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| Garion wrote: | | Pact are fine. They are a bit rubbish tbh and the more big guys they have the worse they are. 1 is fine any more is a liability. The marauders shouldn't have S or P access though. That's just dumb. |
Yeah, this is true. Pact are only really an issue in massive online leagues like this where you can play hundreds of games with them.
In a normal tabletop league they are pretty weak as big guys are expensive and a bit of a liability and it will take many seasons to pimp up a couple of marauders into super killers. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Nov 24, 2014 - 09:57 |
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I really don't understand your problem with the roster, there's nothing 'premium' about a starting Pact team. I think..........you should probably play a little bit more before making judgement decisions.
The problem isn't with the roster it's with TV, pass access and 'Leader'. TV and Leader both could do with a major revamp.
As already stated, they've made a few of the most recent rosters based on teams (rather than races). Underworld, Chaos Pact and Nurgle. I am 100% for this idea. And as also already stated, this team is based on the Chaos Allstars. The Chaos Allstars had a roster published in one of the later 2nd edition books. This is a CRP adaptation from this roster. All in all I think they did a pretty good job, I really like the roster.
There isn't a problem with the roster, it's with some of the existing rules. There's nothing broken about having the 3 big guys, when the rest of the team has such awesome (but not starting skills) access. Which makes It far from a great starter, but a bit better long term.
As for having 3 big guys on the stunty teams, I doubt this would happen. Yeah I think they'd be more competitive (however they wouldn't manage TV so well, and inducement game would be less powerful). The point with the rosters is that JJ never wanted them to be even. He deliberately wanted some rosters to be weaker, aka the stunty rosters.
So in my mind, I think they did a great job with the roster. The problem is with the rules not Pact. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Nov 24, 2014 - 10:18 |
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Just so coaches understand what the BBRC did with Pact and Underworld, here's there translation.
Here is the 2nd ed roster, with there translation:
1. Goblin Catcher - Goblin with M access (LRB goblins do not have catchers)
2. Goblin Catcher - Goblin with M access
3. Goblin Catcher - Goblin with M access
4. Goblin Catcher - Goblin with M access
5. Goblin Lineman - Goblin with M access
6. Goblin Lineman - Goblin with M access
7. Goblin Lineman - Goblin with M access
8. Goblin Lineman - Goblin with M access
9. Goblin Lineman - Goblin with M access
10. Goblin Lineman - Goblin with M access
11. Skaven Blitzer - Skaven Blitzer
12. Skaven Blitzer - Skaven Blitzer
13. Skaven Thrower - Skaven Thrower
14. Skaven Thrower - Skaven Thrower
15. Skaven Mutant - Skaven Lineman (with mutation access)
16. Skaven Mutant - Skaven Lineman (with M access)
+ a Troll, which wasn't in the original roster. The 2nd ed also had a special rule about fighting in the dugouts - translation; animosity (I think they may have suffered from animosity anyway!)
Allstars-Pact
Here you have to remember there were no Chaos team or players in 2nd ed. However humans could be chaotic.
1. Ogre Blocker - Ogre
2. Human Thrower - Marauder (pass access)
3. Human Blitzer - Marauder (Strength access)
4. Dark Elf Catcher - Dark Elf Lineman with M access
5. Goblin Catcher - Goblin (no catchers in LRB/CRP)
6. Human Mutant - Marauder (mutation access)
7. Troll blocker - Troll
8. Minotaur blitzer - Minotaur (no blitzers on big guys for LRB/CRP)
9. Human Mutant - Marauder (mutation access)
10. Skaven Mutant - Skaven Lineman (mutation access)
11. Human Thrower - Marauder (pass access)
12. Human Blitzer - Marauder (Strength access)
13. Human Lineman - Marauder
Notes: Allstars didn't suffer from dislike or animosity (the new roster does). Big guys counted as 2 players, therefore the roster only had 13 players.
Overall, I'm pretty happy with the job they did in translating these rosters to CRP. I hope they do more in the future.
A final note on this, when they made theses rosters back in 89, there's no way they'd have thought they'd be under any scrutiny; particularly 25 years later. Also, I doubt they put much thought into them. They were not official rosters and were put in for a bit of fun and to add to the fluff.
The Chaos one particularly I suspect was based on the pro painted team in the workshop. So..........hahaha the Chaos Pact roster we play with today, is handcuffed to the whims of a figure painter/converter from 25 years ago! |
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Joemanji
Joined: Jan 15, 2011
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Nov 24, 2014 - 10:54 |
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Agree with Harvestmouse. The more 2nd edition themed teams the better. The Pact roster is fine for me apart from the min/max potential and killstack issues. And they are general CRP problems rather than Pact-specific ones.
| Garion wrote: | | Pact are fine. They are a bit rubbish tbh and the more big guys they have the worse they are. 1 is fine any more is a liability. The marauders shouldn't have S or P access though. That's just dumb. |
Or possibly this. The roster harvestmouse listed above is equivalent to the Reikland Reavers or such like. No reason a rookie Pact team shouldn't have just Marauder "Linemen" (i.e. lose P and S access). Might make them more fun even - as people might take interesting M options instead. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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| Posted:
Nov 24, 2014 - 10:56 |
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As for the poll , no. Goblin trolls should lose loner, that's all really. Maybe chef and bribes should be on the roster for those teams.
But they don't need more big guys really. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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| Posted:
Nov 24, 2014 - 11:05 |
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| Fortis wrote: | | Just because there's a few hundred of us that smash out a bajillion games doesn't mean the game should be balanced for our style of play specifically. |
This is a great quote. Lots of people forget this when suggesting how they would "fix" CRP. |
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scipio_uranus
Joined: Oct 30, 2014
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| Posted:
Nov 24, 2014 - 11:22 |
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Because Treemen (ST6) aren't Loners, and because Goblins have a Looney (Ball & Chain, ST7).
And because Chaos Ogres, Trolls and Minos have a base ST5, and are basically nuts, and because the other special unique Pact positionals have Animosity, while the Marauders don't even have a single starting skill to begin with, and because despite all the nega-traits and lack of skills their Re-Roll cost is 70K.
Maybe there are even more reasons, but the above are still plenty, and make some sense, balance-wise. |
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Joemanji
Joined: Jan 15, 2011
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| Posted:
Nov 24, 2014 - 11:50 |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | | Fortis wrote: | | Just because there's a few hundred of us that smash out a bajillion games doesn't mean the game should be balanced for our style of play specifically. |
This is a great quote. Lots of people forget this when suggesting how they would "fix" CRP. |
Nah, balance it for these people and it will be balanced for the 7 game leagues too. No reason not to aim for perfection (even if you are unlikely to achieve it). |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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I think Pact would have worked really well like the Secret League Tilean team. Just the Lineman player type and then a list of available allies and universal M access.
If it had to be a structured roster though there may be some mileage in removing the P and S access, making the DElf and Skaven the Blitzers, and adding a CDorf and/or Chaos Warrior. Give the Bigs M access too. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Nov 24, 2014 - 12:18 |
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But that defeats the object, which was to mirror the 2nd ed team. P,S and M access is explained by the 6 humans on the roster. 2 Blitzers (S), 2 Mutants (M), 2 throwers (P).
I'm playing the Tilean team (Garion's version except mine has Dwarfs and Ogres instead of Elves) and they're really struggling. It might be they just haven't had much luck yet, but they're not in a hard division and still no winning. I think they have half the points of my pygmy team (with 4 gators instead of 2). Fun roster though, I really like it and Cowhead really does do good humans! |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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| Posted:
Nov 24, 2014 - 12:18 |
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| mister__joshua wrote: | I think Pact would have worked really well like the Secret League Tilean team. Just the Lineman player type and then a list of available allies and universal M access.
If it had to be a structured roster though there may be some mileage in removing the P and S access, making the DElf and Skaven the Blitzers, and adding a CDorf and/or Chaos Warrior. Give the Bigs M access too. |
although I wouldn't mind 3 M access big guys, I suspect the TT resurection tournament scene might not like it too much. That said the mino at the least should have M access on singles, as it is a Chaos Mino, like the one in the Pact team/ |
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