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Poll
Chameoleon Skinks???
Love them
39%
 39%  [ 27 ]
Trash
27%
 27%  [ 19 ]
SKINKS ONLY FOOL!
33%
 33%  [ 23 ]
Total Votes : 69


Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: Jun 04, 2020 - 08:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Two observations:
1) Balance is exceptionally hard to achieve. Unless a player is identical it will almost always be better or worse. Whether a player is better or worse is very sensitive (just see how easily you can make any player clearly better or worse).

2) Player utility is not evaluated in isolation but in team composition. For example, a longbeard is largely considered better than a skink, but most dwarf players would put huge value on having a skink. So if a player is different from the other players available to a coach they will buff the team not when they are equal in quality but when they pass a threshold of utility to the team.

As Garion says, they shouldn’t buff lizards. As such the chameleon skink must be worse than the other options such that it wouldn’t be chosen in an optimum team. The exact level of how much worse is extremely hard to gauge and it is better to have a player that can be chosen for fun but maintains balance than one that buffs the team. As such, if one is going to add a player one should be too cautious on the side of under utility. Almost any buff to the chameleon skink I can think of moves it dangerously close to the line.
mekutata



Joined: May 03, 2015

Post   Posted: Jun 04, 2020 - 10:46 Reply with quote Back to top

This reminds me so much of the Dark Elf Assassin discussions.

First, I think one should keep in mind that some BB is not played in Black Box Trophy Hunt. But in less regular and less "efficient" environments, but maybe more fun/fluff/Beer orientated. Maybe you play in a Private League against many Elf Coaches and keep losing to their mad pass plays, maybe you play just crazy team builds in ranked etc Most importantly, some teams only play a (short) season and that's it. So

Second, in general adding Players to a team does in my opinion not necessarily mean to buff the team.
(In worst case it probably means mainly more Gold for GW).
It optimally means to add even more flexibility and variation for Coaches on how to play.
One of BB's biggest strengths is that not one team plays like the another.
If this is emphasised by giving Coaches now the chance to play a certain team individually different as well it's a good thing. I would even go so far and say if there was a way to add a new Positional that offers an optional approach and emphasises a different strategy on how to play a team, that would be great.

Despite 20+years of gaming and streamlining how to manage and play teams most efficient, there are still remaining typical debates on the logic of Trolls or Throwers in Orc Teams, the Goblins calculating with Secret Weapons and Bribes, the Elves being able to start with only specific Positionals, Slann being just so strange... let's not get started on the amount of ReRolls and TV Management.
More obscure Teambuilds by Coaches are "bad" but interesting and (hopefully) fun to watch and play, like strange Underworld builds without Rats or pure Linemen teams. So different paths are not per se better paths. But different can mean variation and keep things fresh!

And with you Coaches mostly agreeing anyway on the Chameleon not being that good I don't really see this threat and don't really get why you guys keep arguing about "buffing" already strong Saurusii.

But what the Vanilla Saurüses lack is that they have just 2 Positionals and 1 Big Guy.
Sp Coaches invest SPP heavily in maybe one Skink to handle the Ball and otherwise skill their strong dudes to become stronger. That's it. (Of course all that matters is what happens actually on the pitch, but the intentional direction is a bit finite, Strong Bashers that can't handle the Ball and a few Stunty Runners).

This seems a bit lackluster.. Not sure if the Chameleon Positional really changes much about that though, that player will probably also try to hide behind the strong guys and situationally mark (with Assist for protection). I could imagine the initially mentioned situation of a Private League with many unbashy Elves. Then it could be fun to wall them off and mark potential ball receivers. But that's what Star Players and eventually developed Players should be for imo, Players developed for specific game changing situations.

But I personally think if there was a way to add/change the lizards it's rather with another expensive Positional; so Coaches have to ponder now on not hiring their traditional 6 Saurus Blockers. If you think about the endless amount of obscure dinosaurs testing evolution roads for us it is actually a very boring product, that Chameleon. Because it look like a developed skink with an movement injury.

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jun 04, 2020 - 11:26 Reply with quote Back to top

MarckusOfCamlan wrote:
The idea isn't to make them better than regular skink, but same level.


That is not achievable. Because of the regular skinks great stat line. And because of how player costing works. The player will always be better or worse based on value.

If they add anything useful it would be a buff to the team. They took the only option available to them. Make a player that is fluffy, and fun for some people.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 04, 2020 - 12:59 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm not suggesting to change Lizardmen, but just for the sake of academical discussion, if they are too strong and no new positional can't be added without either making them overpowered or making a gimmick positional like the Chameleon Skink, a solution could have been nerfing a bit the team.
In my opinion Lizardmen are a strong roster (until they face clawmb) but with a boring team composition, I'd love a little more variety.
That said, since the roster is based on WHFB Lizardmen Army, whose Saurus and Skinks form the backbone, it's hard to find different positionals.
The dull solution could be adding Saurus Veterans or Skink Braves but they would just have a better statline.
Skink Chameleons should have blowpipes and be hard to spot, but it's hard to represent camouflage in BB.
The Chameleon idea is nice, but the player doesn't represent properly the lore.
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 04, 2020 - 18:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Dodge, Sidestep and shadowing are not bad for camo representation. It is hard to get them where you want them when you cant see them properly. And perhaps they can follow without others having chance to trip them up.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 04, 2020 - 18:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Default Side Step would be better than Pass Block indeed.
MenonaLoco



Joined: Jan 05, 2016

Post   Posted: Jun 04, 2020 - 19:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Ya'll play more chameleons, i need that to fill my kill grid. Thanks.
Seventyone



Joined: Dec 02, 2010

Post   Posted: Jun 04, 2020 - 20:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Nb chameleons do change their skin colour but not for camouflage. It's a way of communicating with other chameleons. This is totally irrelevant but somehow important to me

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 04, 2020 - 20:47 Reply with quote Back to top

WHFB background is not scientifically accurate. Smile
In the Lizardmen Army Book 5th edition it's clearly explained that Oxyotl, "He who hunts unseen", is hard to spot due to visually melding with the environment.
We have to take the lore with a pinch of salt, as many things in fantasy settings.
Wozzaa



Joined: Apr 23, 2016

Post   Posted: Jun 05, 2020 - 06:18 Reply with quote Back to top

A normal skink with Foul appearance (renamed camouflage, coz GW like doing that) would've been better. Maybe 20k extra.

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Muff2n



Joined: May 20, 2017

Post   Posted: Jun 05, 2020 - 10:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Hmm camouflage being so good that you might not see the player as you go to hit them?!

How about sneaky git? Hard to see what the blighter is doing to that player on the floor (until there's blood).
Hovring



Joined: Oct 29, 2003

Post   Posted: Jun 05, 2020 - 11:36 Reply with quote Back to top

I think sneaky git instead of pass block is a great idea. It goes well with putting shadowing on prone players and foul while doing it.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 05, 2020 - 12:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Sneaky Git is a terribad skill. Better only Shadowing then, and cheaper price.
Hovring



Joined: Oct 29, 2003

Post   Posted: Jun 05, 2020 - 13:53 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't agree that it's a terribad skill. It depends on the strategy really and setting up fouls is usually not wise for lizardmen teams. With git you take an almost risk free foul. If you succeed chances of getting him out is more than double the chance that you are banned and no matter what he will be stunned next turn.

Add shadowing to that you now have a player that is perfect for tying up prone players.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 05, 2020 - 14:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Article by bghandras about Sneaky Git:

https://fumbbl.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=30&page=11

Example 2 seems the most fitting.
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