Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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 Posted:
Sep 07, 2007 - 21:14 |
 
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| SillySod wrote: | | Call it a wizard or paying for "daemonic bindings" or something. Give them an apoth. |
If I were the coach I'd GLADLY trade Regen for an Apo.. letting me CHOOSE to save that 100K 60spp player instead of leaving it to fate. I think Regen is far more thematic. You can call it a Ward Save if it makes you feel better. 
| SillySod wrote: | | No daemons (except blue horrors, who appeared when your pink horrors died) were less than St 3 or remotely stunty. |
Hmm really.. only Horrors were less than St 3 or remotely stunty.. I knew there was a reason I used Horrors as my base player! And if I'd put higher St on anything else, I'd have even more idiots in here screaming about how this team is "Teh Uber!"
| SillySod wrote: | | On the other hand, I would like these list's ressurected alot. Would someone please try the few "real" daemons approach please. Or else I will, be warned. |
Feel free, although last I checked they WERE NOT accepting teams for regular BB but ARE for Stunty. |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2007 - 21:19 |
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| pac wrote: | | The problem is that you have a whole bunch of players who physically cannot do it. If they were AG 1, fair enough - there are plenty of high-scoring Saurus. But players who cannot handle the ball whatsoever should be very rare in BB - certainly not 4 out of 5 positions on a list (even a Stunty list). |
Hmm well it's probably silly to point out that Screamers, Discs, and Flamers of Tzeentch actually don't have hands.
I suppose I could make the Tzeentch list look like this:
0-2 Spawn 100000 4 5 1 9 Always Hungry, Big Guy, Really Stupid, Regenerate, Throw Team-Mate G, S
0-16 Horror 40000 6 2 3 7 Dodge, Right Stuff, Stunty A
But that's probably far too original for Stunty. |
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Synn
Joined: Dec 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2007 - 21:32 |
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This team is INSANELY overpowered.
Quit giving basic guys dodge, stunty, and AG 4. There is exactly one player with AG 4 in stunty and he lacks stunty because of it.
__Synn |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2007 - 23:15 |
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| Synn wrote: | This team is INSANELY overpowered.
Quit giving basic guys dodge, stunty, and AG 4. There is exactly one player with AG 4 in stunty and he lacks stunty because of it.
__Synn |
Where did I give a basic guy Dodge, Stunty and AG4? The only AG 4 on the team is ST 1 and No Hands!
Perhaps try actually reading what's on your screen before posting next time. |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2007 - 23:16 |
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| Craftnburn wrote: | | Hmm well it's probably silly to point out that Screamers, Discs, and Flamers of Tzeentch actually don't have hands. |
Well, yes, that's what I'm getting at: if they don't have hands, what are they doing in a Blood Bowl team?
| Quote: | | Where did I give a basic guy Dodge, Stunty and AG4? |
By 'basic guy' he means starting player. |
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Synn
Joined: Dec 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2007 - 23:20 |
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vanGorn
Joined: Feb 24, 2004
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2007 - 23:36 |
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| SillySod wrote: |
On the other hand, I would like these list's ressurected alot. Would someone please try the few "real" daemons approach please. Or else I will, be warned. |
Oh yes. Zirrexelekakazax should return to the BloodBowl arenas.  |
_________________
Gimme a pint of fungus beer!
Then we will climb the ladder.
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2007 - 02:32 |
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| Synn wrote: |
Quit giving basic guys dodge, stunty, and AG 4. There is exactly one player with AG 4 in stunty and he lacks stunty because of it.
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Lol, even I didn't do that. |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2007 - 03:08 |
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| Craftnburn wrote: |
If I were the coach I'd GLADLY trade Regen for an Apo.. letting me CHOOSE to save that 100K 60spp player instead of leaving it to fate. I think Regen is far more thematic. You can call it a Ward Save if it makes you feel better. |
Some people would disagree. I prefer to think in terms of in game value rather than team progression. In terms of an individual game, the regeneration is better.
| Craftnburn wrote: | | Hmm really.. only Horrors were less than St 3 or remotely stunty.. I knew there was a reason I used Horrors as my base player! And if I'd put higher St on anything else, I'd have even more idiots in here screaming about how this team is "Teh Uber!" |
They were old BLUE horrors. Horrors have evolved a little since then. There are now no more pink horrors with big, stupid hands, but also no little, stunty type, horrors.
In terms of generic horrors, they have become more like the old pink ones (just without those hands thank nuffle). So... in conclusion, they are full sized daemons and, as a consequence, HARD!
Flamers are properly hard in combat, chosen chaos warrior hard... St 2?
I don't think the solution is to make them St 3, I think you shouldn't have a team of them...
| Craftnburn wrote: | | Feel free, although last I checked they WERE NOT accepting teams for regular BB but ARE for Stunty. |
I didn't suggest to not making it a stunty team. I'd rather suggest that you restrict the daemons to just a few (and maybe a greater daemon with a restrictive price and some kind of high penalty roll).
Upon reading the team, I see some nice touches (though it is not balanced). TTM, right stuff is interesting. The auto free wizard is very nice and very in theme (the old daemon teams actually had to buy a wizard before the daemons took to the pitch). Be careful though.
Jump up all round is a nice idea but probably waay too powerful.
The No Hands thing: listen to Pac. I thought I had a great idea with removing re-rolls for elves... Pac was right when he said that it might make the team balanced, it just wouldn't make it play bloodbowl. |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2007 - 03:49 |
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Ok, thanks to all those who actually offered constructive criticism both in the thread and directly.
I've made a few adjustments to help alay some concerns about the team.
Screamers -1 MA -1 AV and +10K
Discs -1 MA -10K
Please take time to consider ALL a players stats, abilities, and price; and most importantly the team as a whole.
I know that some of these players positives look awesome, but they come with negatives to balance them. There are only so many variations on 6 2 3 7 Dodge Stunty Right Stuff before it stops being unique.
Also PLEASE playtest it.. You'll discover that what looks great at first glance on paper often lacks in practice. |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2007 - 04:01 |
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| Synn wrote: | | This team is INSANELY overpowered. |
Ok, well as hard as it is to dispute such thoughtful and constructive advice I'll make an attempt.
Synn,
Based on our conversation in the chat, i'll presume that your primary issue with the competetive balance of this roster are the Screamers.
Let's examine what a Horrors coach gets for his (now) 100K.
MA 9 Very Impressive. Screamers soar across the pitch at a speed unmatched by any other Stunty player. What they are able to do once they arrive is much more limited (No receiving a Kick on a Blitz! for example).
ST 1 Screamers are extremely vulnerable to any blocks or blitzs that they get subjected to. Furthermore, if Dauntless fails (which happens anywhere from 3% to 50% of the time depending on the target) the screamer is almost certainly facing a -2d block, and often -3d. Even if Dauntless succeeds the screamer has only earned itself a 12.5% chance of knocking itself down, a 12.5% chance of knocking down its target, and a 12.5% chance of knocking both down (assuming no skills involved).
AG 4 Combined with Stunty, this virtually ensures being able to move almost anywhere on the pitch. However No Hands renders this AG almost useless for any other purpose (No Catch, No Pickup, No Intercept, etc.. just dodges). This fits rather well with the idea that they are flying Above the other players while still offering some chance for them to crash to the field (Double 1s occur 1 in 36 normally or as we all know, 1 in 2 when making a critical move!)
AV 5 Considerabely lower than every similarly priced positional player save the Snotling Pumpwagon which cannot even be blocked!
In summary:
I will grant you this player is very different than the standard Stunty player, but while it potentially has some great strengths it also has corresponding weaknessess which bring it back into balance.
The Screamer can be a disrupting influence but runs considerable risk doing so. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2007 - 04:32 |
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| Craftnburn wrote: | Ok, thanks to all those who actually offered constructive criticism both in the thread and directly.
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You didn't read what I said did you?
The problem isn't about whether or not the team is overpowered or underpowered. The problem either comes from:
1) fluff (me)
2) no hands - not a bloodbowl team (pac)
balance is trivial in comparison. |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2007 - 04:44 |
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| Craftnburn wrote: | | assuming no skills involved |
this is the stupidest assumption ever, you didn't even consider assist's
| Craftnburn wrote: |
AG 4 Combined with Stunty, this virtually ensures being able to move almost anywhere on the pitch. However No Hands renders this AG almost useless for any other purpose (No Catch, No Pickup, No Intercept, etc.. just dodges). This fits rather well with the idea that they are flying Above the other players while still offering some chance for them to crash to the field (Double 1s occur 1 in 36 normally or as we all know, 1 in 2 when making a critical move!) |
agreed, trouble is that this is superb mobility when combined with Mv 9 (not to mention TTM). note that snotlings have to be only movement 4 to stop their skill from dominating.
| Craftnburn wrote: |
The Screamer can be a disrupting influence but runs considerable risk doing so. |
not necessarily. a canny player will ensure tha the screamer is used only to harras the ball carrier, popping it loose, wherever it is on the pitch. it also has enough move to hit the ball carrier AND escape. Clever coaches will abuse this player.
Like I said before though, it's not individual player balance I'd be concerned about this early in team creation.
| Craftnburn wrote: |
In summary:
I will grant you this player is very different than the standard Stunty player, but while it potentially has some great strengths it also has corresponding weaknessess which bring it back into balance.
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I said this about those elves. I stand by my statement. Enough said. |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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Synn
Joined: Dec 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2007 - 05:20 |
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Well craft.... i wrote that when you tried to make the Screamer MA 10.
Now you made it MA 9, which still makes it the fastest thing in stunty. You keep pointing out the no hands bit which while it is important... is not the end all of this player. This thing still has dauntless and the best mobility in all of stunty. If you are serious about keeping the screamer at its outrageous MA.... then try taking dauntless off of it. Make it a mobile TZ at best and then it passes the "balance test".
Note: this only works if the wizard idea is shot down. Wizards are very powerful in stunty.
__Synn |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2007 - 05:23 |
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| SillySod wrote: |
You didn't read what I said did you?
The problem isn't about whether or not the team is overpowered or underpowered. The problem either comes from:
1) fluff (me)
2) no hands - not a bloodbowl team (pac)
balance is trivial in comparison. |
I did read what you said. However your Fluff argument is addressed already by the Team Fluff. Not to mention that Daemons come in all shapes and sizes, not all are huge.
As for 2, Players bringing Chainsaws, Deathrollers, and other absurd things aren't much better than a few no hand daemons. |
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