WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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 Posted:
Mar 02, 2012 - 15:25 |
 
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Is it me, or is this starting to look like some kind of army build and not a BB team? |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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Mar 02, 2012 - 16:16 |
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Ehlers: The team doesn't really need another position, that would only reduce the number of Horrors on the pitch and dilute their playstyle theme, TTM.
All: The issue that was under discussion is what to do about the Firewyrms which are no longer their original design. The current version is a fourth or fifth attempt at modifying them due to the client bugs that derailed the original design. Anyone familiar with their development (God help you!  ) should remember that their 4 Ag was based around the fact that B&Cs have no need of Agility and therefore it was designed to make Bomb throwing a worthwhile alternative to B&C. Instead of the original design of a shambling fire-spitting chaos spawn, the Firewyrm currently is an agile BG Blitz machine (which is inconsistent with both team Fluff and design).
Obviously, lacking the implementation of Bombardier and B&C in the client, a permanent fix/modification/adjustment for the position is going to be difficult to assess. In fact, because these two skills play such an important role in the Leeg, I think it is going to be virtually impossible to evaluate any of the rosters, and the Leeg as a whole. Once those skills are in place and a sufficient amount of games have been played, I'm sure that all the Leeg rosters will be looked at for possible changes. |
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Ehlers
Joined: Jun 26, 2006
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Mar 02, 2012 - 16:57 |
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| WhatBall wrote: | | Is it me, or is this starting to look like some kind of army build and not a BB team? |
There are actually some BB teams with exact same number of positionals and structure.
| Craftnburn wrote: | | Ehlers: The team doesn't really need another position, that would only reduce the number of Horrors on the pitch and dilute their playstyle theme, TTM. |
Other teams have more positionals, so making 7positional avaliable should not really be the problem. And if you want to keep the fluff of TTM, then give the familiar TTM skill.
| Craftnburn wrote: | | Instead of the original design of a shambling fire-spitting chaos spawn, the Firewyrm currently is an agile BG Blitz machine (which is inconsistent with both team Fluff and design). |
Shadow has stated that the Firewyrm WONT have bomb and B&C. So when I and other people make suggestion, you just disregard it instead of actually thinking this tweak might work to still keep the fluff of the team and still be approved by Shadow. |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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Mar 02, 2012 - 18:04 |
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| Ehlers wrote: | | Other teams have more positionals, so making 7positional avaliable should not really be the problem. And if you want to keep the fluff of TTM, then give the familiar TTM skill. |
Just because other teams do, doesn't mean it's the best choice for this team.
| Craftnburn wrote: | | So when I and other people make suggestion, you just disregard it instead of actually thinking this tweak might work to still keep the fluff of the team and still be approved by Shadow. |
I didn't disregard it, I considered it, and I don't agree with it. I didn't realize I was required to accept your suggestions. |
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garyt1
Joined: Mar 12, 2011
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Mar 02, 2012 - 18:43 |
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| Ehlers wrote: | | Why count as a secret weapon? Pogo Stick does not. If a Horror of Tzeentch can be stunty compared to the warhammer fantasy world, then why cant a disc not also be in a stunty or smaller version? |
They are fast FLYING mounts.
We don't see the humans on horses, certainly not Pegasii. |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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Mar 02, 2012 - 19:08 |
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| garyt1 wrote: | | Ehlers wrote: | | Why count as a secret weapon? Pogo Stick does not. If a Horror of Tzeentch can be stunty compared to the warhammer fantasy world, then why cant a disc not also be in a stunty or smaller version? |
They are fast FLYING mounts.
We don't see the humans on horses, certainly not Pegasii. |
the ref wouldn't probably notice that the mount and the rider are actually 2 separate entities |
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Ehlers
Joined: Jun 26, 2006
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Mar 02, 2012 - 21:59 |
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| garyt1 wrote: | | Ehlers wrote: | | Why count as a secret weapon? Pogo Stick does not. If a Horror of Tzeentch can be stunty compared to the warhammer fantasy world, then why cant a disc not also be in a stunty or smaller version? |
They are fast FLYING mounts.
We don't see the humans on horses, certainly not Pegasii. |
Spider Riders <-- you would not be able to see the spider because of the goblin?
Squig Hopper <-- same
These two teams allow mounts, but I guess Stunty fluff is based on reality.
| Craftnburn wrote: | | I didn't disregard it, I considered it, and I don't agree with it. I didn't realize I was required to accept your suggestions. |
I did not say you are required to accept my suggestions, did I? NO, but a comment would be appreciated though since you are the creator of this team right? But I guess no others can have a say on it.
But oki, what ever. Hakuna Matata Craftnburn |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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Mar 02, 2012 - 22:10 |
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| Ehlers wrote: | | I did not say you are required to accept my suggestions, did I? NO, but a comment would be appreciated though since you are the creator of this team right? |
But I did give you a comment...
| Craftnburn wrote: | | The team doesn't really need another position, that would only reduce the number of Horrors on the pitch and dilute their playstyle theme, TTM. |
If you don't agree with my reasoning that's fine.. but I did explain why I was opposed to your suggestion. |
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PsyPhiGrad
Joined: Dec 22, 2007
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Mar 02, 2012 - 23:04 |
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I sure hope the Horrors are given a thorough revamp when all the new rules are implemented. They are an ugly roster. I think they'd work much better if they truly represented the Changer of Ways and drop all the bombs, firewyrms, screamers and TTM nonsense and gave them random mutations every game. The code exists from previous birthdays and I hope it wouldn't be too hard to import into an ongoing league. Add a Spawn of Chaos to the randomly mutated Horrors and I'd love to play both with and against the team. As they currenlty stand: YUCK! |
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Olesh
Joined: Jun 24, 2010
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Mar 02, 2012 - 23:15 |
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PsyPhiGrad: You're talking about a completely new team, though. Why not just design a completely new team with fluff that supports it? Firewyrms and Flamers and Horrors are actual Tzeench daemons that exist in Warhammer lore, and the current roster was an attempt to make a reasonably accurate depiction of them on the Bloodbowl pitch. The gimmick and stats fit well with them, but in their current state are one of the weakest teams overall in terms of winning games (pre-FFB). What would you replace them with while still keeping in the overall theme of a team comprised of Tzeench daemons and staying true to the fluff? |
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PsyPhiGrad
Joined: Dec 22, 2007
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Mar 02, 2012 - 23:27 |
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I don't get how TTM Jump Up is very Tzeentchy. When I think of Tzeentch I think of all sorts of crazy mutated Horrors. Firewyrms, Flamers and Screamers I understand are all from WHFB but do they really belong in BB with all there clunky mechanics that the designer constantly whines about and that the admins don't like. The roster has got a horrible record and nobody seems happy with them. That's why I say start over from scratch. Dump the bonkers stuff that really would only work well if you gave them custom extraordinary skills and rules.
I could see them being much like the Nurglings. But I'd rather see some random Tzeentchian chaos via ever changing and random mutations on their baseline players. Much more in character for their background then TTM. TTM is a stretch for magic, Jump Up is just a clunky fix to their broken stats and skills. Safe Throw Bombs is another clunky attempt to port a player type that I don't think really belongs in BB (they are great in WHFB).
I'm all for starting from scratch, I'm sure the collective minds of FUMBBL can come up with something more balanced and less clunky. I even wouldn't mind if they went all Changer of Ways and changed the roster into some of the interesting rosters that people are constantly proposing. A lot of them are head and shoulders above this current abomination that will only become worse when all the new rules are introduced. |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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Mar 03, 2012 - 02:53 |
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PsyPhiGrad,
1st.. Perhaps you could actually make as Stunty team before you decide you know better than anyone else what a team should or shouldn't be.
2nd.. You think I didn't consider Random mutations? I did, it was Vetoed.
3rd.. I gave you some honest feedback on the Daemons thread, then you come here and talk about me, pretty classless. |
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PsyPhiGrad
Joined: Dec 22, 2007
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Mar 03, 2012 - 03:12 |
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Expressing my opinion is classless? Really? What planet are you from? No wonder you can't get along with the leagues admins. Step back and realize that people can have opinions that radically differ from yours. You are not some Stunty design god. Especially if the Horrors are to be a judge of your design abilities. I and many others think it's a brutally designed team. Why do you have such a hard time grasping that? And why do you have to take every legitimate complaint so personally? I fear for your sanity. And genuinely wish you'd get some help for your attitude because I fear for your mental and physical health. |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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Mar 03, 2012 - 03:49 |
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No, comments like this:
| PsyPhiGrad wrote: | | all there clunky mechanics that the designer constantly whines about |
are classless.
Also if you consider that I've playtested more games with Horrors than you've played on Fummbl, you'll excuse me if I take such harsh criticism, for a project I've spent so much time on, somewhat personally.
Step back and realize that the roster that exists is the work of literally hundreds of hours. You're more than welcome to have your own opinion, how you express that opinion is the issue. I've offered you advice when you asked it, in a friendly manner and you come here and act insulting. |
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PsyPhiGrad
Joined: Dec 22, 2007
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Mar 03, 2012 - 04:28 |
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It's my opinion that they are clunky mechanics which I, others, and in game experiences which I'd argue rather clearly supports this viewpoint.
As to your whining, do you really want to go there? There's ample evidence all over the forums. And I'm classless for pointing your team's and your well documented faults? Really? Are you that completely unself-aware?
I worry greatly for you. |
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