FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Joined: Feb 26, 2009

Posted: Jun 25, 2010 - 03:29

I can see where he's comin from that follow up is part of the block 'action' and so constitutes a move from that point of view. If follow up was an action you would be performing two actions in one go.ie block and move as opposed to blitz.

But I totally disagree that you can shadow someone that follows up a block.

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shadow46x2

Joined: Nov 22, 2003

Posted: Jun 25, 2010 - 07:05

Koigokoro wrote:

Umm, follow up is always a part of Block or Blitz Action if the blocking player chooses to follow up. Are we really arguing about this or are you trolling me?

CRP: " Follow Up Moves: A player who has made a block is allowed to make a special follow up move and occupy a square vacated by the player that he has pushed back"

you're right...

follow up is always a part of block or blitz...
full stop...

it is not an ACTION...

the rule book very clearly defines what is an action....here's a hint...following up a block, is not one...

again, since you obviously fail at grasping a very simple concept of what is, and what is not an action...

again...

from page 8 of LRB4 ...Player actions include: Move, Block, Blitz, Pass
from page 7 of LRB5...Player actions include: Move, Block, Blitz, Pass..and even clarify two more actions..hand-off, foul...

notice, that nowhere in there does it state "followup"....

--j

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There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet.

cmelchior

Joined: Apr 11, 2004

Posted: Jun 25, 2010 - 07:45

But actions are not atomic components, its sequences of smaller events.

Eg. a blitz consists of: move, select target, roll block die, select result, pushback, followup, knocking down the player, armor/injury roll and move again.

You cannot possible argue that a follow-up is somehow outside this list of events that make up a blitz or block action, otherwise I would claim that eg. Pilling On doesn't work either, as by your reasoning knocking down the player isn't part of the action either.

A player is performing an action between the point you activate him and select his action and until his turn ends (for whatever reason).

shadow46x2

Joined: Nov 22, 2003

Posted: Jun 25, 2010 - 07:58

cmelchior wrote:

But actions are not atomic components, its sequences of smaller events.

Eg. a blitz consists of: move, select target, roll block die, select result, pushback, followup, knocking down the player, armor/injury roll and move again.

please note...

this definition of how the blitz action works, is one collection of functions, which the rule book declares as an action...

as far as the rulebook definition of what is, and is not, an action...
selecting a target is not an action...
rolling block dice is not an action...
selecting results is not an action
pushbacks are not an action...
following up is not an action..
knocking a player down is not an action...
armor rolls are not actions...
injury rolls are not actions...

blitz is the action...

pretty simple thing to grasp, people...

--j

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origami wrote:

There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet.

Diddyboy

Joined: Dec 29, 2007

Posted: Jun 25, 2010 - 08:23

not often i agree with shadow but this is one time he gets my vote to become emperor

cmelchior

Joined: Apr 11, 2004

Posted: Jun 25, 2010 - 08:38

shadow46x2 wrote:

as far as the rulebook definition of what is, and is not, an action...
selecting a target is not an action...
rolling block dice is not an action...
selecting results is not an action
pushbacks are not an action...
following up is not an action..
knocking a player down is not an action...
armor rolls are not actions...
injury rolls are not actions...

blitz is the action...

pretty simple thing to grasp, people...

Are you seriously trying to argue that the only thing making up a Blitz action is the word "Blitz"? and you still failed to address the fact that Pilling On doesn't work either in CRP by your definition of what and what's not actions.

TransientNomad

Joined: May 14, 2009

Posted: Jun 25, 2010 - 09:07

Two men enter one man leave.
ITS THUNDERDOME

Kalimar

Joined: Sep 22, 2006

Posted: Jun 25, 2010 - 09:10

No shadowing on followups in this client, as I read the rules exactly as shadow does in this case. And I actually see no room there for any misinterpretation. It's very clear what an action is and it becomes even clearer once you have to code it, really.

cmelchior

Joined: Apr 11, 2004

Posted: Jun 25, 2010 - 09:29

Kalimar wrote:

No shadowing on followups in this client, as I read the rules exactly as shadow does in this case. And I actually see no room there for any misinterpretation. It's very clear what an action is and it becomes even clearer once you have to code it, really.

Of course you are free to implement it as you like, but I don't think it is a clearcut as you make it. Did you look at the examples here: http://www.talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=27597&hilit=shadowing+side+step?

Also, as players are allowed to move after a block in a Blitz action, they have not ended their action during the followup, and as such are still performing the action during the follow up. Unless you want to argue that they stop the blitz action during the follow up and somehow resume it afterwards.

Calthor

Joined: Jan 24, 2006

Posted: Jun 25, 2010 - 09:34

As much as I'm surprised by this, it seems that this might actually be possible. And I only believed it because Ian 'DoubleSkulls' - BBRC member - says it is possible.

Kalimar

Joined: Sep 22, 2006

Posted: Jun 25, 2010 - 09:36

@cmelchior: ok, I get your point there. Blitz is a Move action and Following up should not allow for escaping the Shadowing player and continuing the Move afterwards. So it is a somewhat grey area. *sigh* Nothing in coding that thing is ever easy... Wink

Prinz

Joined: Oct 01, 2005

Posted: Jun 25, 2010 - 09:48

It's perfectly reasonable for Blitz to allow the player to escape from shadowing.
Let's think about it logically, you're blocking the other player, they can't shadow you as they're too busy getting knocked the hell back by your. It also makes no sense to shadow someone at the same time as they're stepping into your square.

Also, if you're using your sidestep properly, you'll still be able to shadow the player anyway.

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CircularLogic

Joined: Aug 22, 2003

Posted: Jun 25, 2010 - 09:59

shadow46x2 wrote:

but since you've already used TBB...i'll one up you with the rulebook...

Quote:

Shadowing (General)
The player may use this skill when a player performing an Action on the
opposing team moves out of any of his tackle zones for any reason.

Reading this, you can shadow a player that leaves your tackle zone during his action. If my teammate gets blocked by the player I'm marking and the blocking players moves out of my tackle zone in his follow up, I am entitled to shadow him. This even makes sense from a game logic point of view.
Now if a player sidesteps and is still standing, all the criteria needed for a shadowing attempt are given: The player perfoming the block action (= an action) is leaving one of your tackle zones.

Follow-up is an optional part of the blocking action, thus while following up he is still performing the blocking action.

Or looking at it from a different angle:
The player performing an action is usually termed the 'active player'. When the active player leaves a tackle zone of yours, you can shadow him.

The only thing you cannot shadow are players that are being pushed back. Also possibly passblocking players, because I don't know if the passblock move counts as an action.

CircularLogic

Joined: Aug 22, 2003

Posted: Jun 25, 2010 - 10:03

Kalimar wrote:

@cmelchior: ok, I get your point there. Blitz is a Move action and Following up should not allow for escaping the Shadowing player and continuing the Move afterwards. So it is a somewhat grey area. *sigh* Nothing in coding that thing is ever easy... Wink

Blitz is not a move action. It is a Blitz action. Also the wording does NOT specify which action a player has to perform, so that he can be shadowed. He just has to perform any action (lasting from his activation until the activation of the next player or the turnover) and he has to leave one of your tacklezones.

Calthor

Joined: Jan 24, 2006

Posted: Jun 25, 2010 - 10:05

CircularLogic wrote:

Also possibly passblocking players, because I don't know if the passblock move counts as an action.

"The move is made using all of the normal rules and skills (for example, having to dodge in order to leave opposing players' tackle zones)"

So, Shadowing would still work on a Pass Block move.