Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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 Posted:
Feb 22, 2012 - 21:02 |
 
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Thanks Kalamona, I thought that might be the case, just thought I should ask. |
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MoonFever
Joined: Oct 06, 2003
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Feb 23, 2012 - 03:57 |
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Illegal weapons thrown out automatically now? That'll change strats... |
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shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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Feb 23, 2012 - 06:17 |
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| MoonFever wrote: | | Illegal weapons thrown out automatically now? That'll change strats... |
we're working on a "house rule" for that...
--j |
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| origami wrote: | | There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Feb 29, 2012 - 06:16 |
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Warning: LONG ramble ahead. This is mostly a 'what do I think' piece, and I'm not particularly concerned if the changes are implemented - I just want others to think about these things (especially given the recent spate of new rosters for Stunty Leeg.)
All right, I know that all prices are somewhat based upon the team.
I also think I understand most pricing (especially what gets done in the proposed rosters).
But one thing leaves me confused time and time again.
Linemen from different teams, who have wildly differing prices from what their skills might suggest:
20k
Snotling: 4/1/3/5, Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff, Regeneration, Thick Skull, Two Heads (Lose Regen/Thick Skull/Two Heads, Gain Titchy/Sidestep)
30k
Brownie: 6/1/3/7, Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff, Titchy
Gnoblar: 6/1/3/7, Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff
Skyre Slave: 6/1/3/6, Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff, Guard (Titchy)
Thralling: 5/2/3/6, Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff (Thick Skull)
40k
Chaos Halfling: 5/2/3/6 Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff
Eshin Adept: 6/2/3/6, Dodge, Stunty
Forest Goblin: 6/2/3/6, Dodge, Stunty
Goblin: 6/2/3/7, Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff
Pygmy: 5/2/3/6, Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff, Shadowing
Squig Herder: 6/2/3/7, Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff
50k
Gnome: 4/2/3/8, Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff, Thick Skull
Horror: 4/2/3/7, Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff, Regeneration, Throw Teammate, Jump Up
Nurgling: 5/2/2/7, Dodge, Stunty, Regeneration
60k
Skink: 7/2/3/7, Dodge, Stunty
(Whatballs suggested changes are in brackets.)
Now, I think having Strength 2 linemen, with Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff, and no other skills is kind of the baseline at 40k; and Strength 1 linemen with Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff and no other skills is kind of the baseline at 30k.
I then assume that someone could gain a skill for 10k, and the exact movement and armour and agility might fluctuate by a point based on the rest of the team, and if the teams positionals are weak, then the cost may go down by 10 (like Mechavermin - Skyre Slaves really ought to be 40k, but they have fairly low strength and low speed over all, so 30k is reasonable); similarly Pygmies are the worst of the 40k linemen, but they get an extra not amazing skill (especially with their speed), whereas the Chaos Halflings get M access; so all the 40k guys seem good, and Thrallings are good, even at 30k (even with Whatballs suggestion!) since Strigoyan have so many other issues.
However, we then get some outliers that really don't make any sense to my new-to-stunty-leeg-brain, even basing on the rest of the team:
Snotlings. Why are they 20k, when they are arguably the best S1 linemen? (Yes they die slightly faster, and are slightly slower, but really.. for the number of skills they get, even in the revised version of Whatball, how can they possibly be cheaper than the other S1 linemen?)
Nurglings: These guys lose 1 agi in order to gain regen; yet they are 10k more expensive than the other 40kers. Further, the regen can arguably be explained entirely by the entire team lacking agi > 2. So I think Nurglings should be 40k (50k might be reasonable if they had strong positionals; but the complete lack of agi > 2, seems to be a better punishment).
Skinks: 60k? So +1 speed over a gobbo = +20k in price? This might make sense if the team had ANYTHING other than high speed on it's side - but the adept doesn't even have G access. Far too high. These guys should be 50k (and the Adept should have G access, but that's not the point of this post).
Horrors: At first glance it seems like these guys are far too cheap; but really, they are speed 4. However, even with that, I just don't think it's reasonable - 3 skills (regen, jump up, and throw teammate) and only -1 speed compared to half the 40k lino's (as well as still keeping the AV 7 that only half the lino's have).
I would say that they should be 70k (but obviously that's far too much for a lino; and further, the whole team is generally slow, so a reduction is warranted). So make the price 60k, and they would be reasonable. Alternatively, leave them at 50k, but lose the Jump Up; if this goes against the fluff, then say that Jump Up is a trademark of the skilled Horrors, and encourage all Horror coaches to take it as the first skill.
Obviously I'm not proposing large changes:
Snotlings = 30k.
Nurglings = 40k.
Horrors = 60k or lose Jump Up. (I would prefer lose Jump Up, largely because of the generally good attitude of 'less skills at start!')
Skinks = 50k.
Why am I so concerned, especially since I don't play the teams that I want reduced, and I have no problem against the teams I want increased? It came up in a conversation a few days ago, when I was comparing snotlings to boggles, and how the price warranted certain things. Since then I've been thinking about it:
Linemen are the most common players on the pitch. If one of them is taken out, the TV missing from the team should be an accurate portrayal of what TV the team has left. If the team overall warrants extremely wierd pricing on the linemen, I would say that is a failure to price your positionals correctly (or in the case of Skinks, failure to give enough strong positionals to the roster as a whole); in these cases, I think that having balanced linemen should be a minimum requirement for the team, and then you price out the positionals from there, and then balance the positionals around those pricings - don't just create super cool positionals, and awesome fluff for your team, and be forced into accepting very strange prices for your most basic player in order to make the team seem to work. |
Last edited by Nelphine on %b %29, %2012 - %20:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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ErobererZim
Joined: Dec 19, 2009
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Feb 29, 2012 - 07:39 |
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Mmh, intresting Snotling loose "REGE" and Thick Skull, well I think u never played with them, there plopp so much and Easy, THERE NEED it or every Second Halftime is a Game without Snots. Cost on 30k u make them pretty much weaker and Expensice "total useless Team  . This is Fun.
Giving the Slaves Tichy I think NO, its in the moment an HARD Opponent where the Mechs and the Wheel be so HARD with the couble of Guards, that there dont need in my mind a Way to make Easy "VERY EASY" Blitzes on Ballcarriers and Easy Scoring via Dodges, u cant give 0-16 Lines (with Guard and Stunty) Tichy, or u only can Give as opponent the ball to a Str.3 or higher Carrier so dont became a 2-3Diced Blitz on em. We will say a normal Cage with a STR 1 Carrier is TOTAL useless against them, cause there make a 3DICE very EASY on them needed only 2 Guards und 1 small dude to hit them. On the Cost of a Few 2+ Dices.
Thralling, Thick Skull OK, but how can u make the Story to that, why have the Playing Cheers that?
Snotlings 30k NO.
Skink 50k YES.
Nurglings 40k NO AV7 is to good on stunty to make them Cheaper.
Horrors 60k or lose Jump Up, No WHY? There be stupid slow, when there loose JU than there need +2MA and than there be OP Cause there can to EASY make 1Turner.
This is my mind to Your Comment Nelphine. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Feb 29, 2012 - 08:05 |
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First there are 2 things here: I'm looking at the price specifically. Whatball's suggestions are for elsewhere, I just put them in for completeness. So, when I discuss price, I'm going either the original OR Whatballs suggestions (which I think are good ones, but again, not the point). Although, I think agree with you about Skyre Slaves; the Slaves should not be given Titchy, it provides too much maneuverability to linemen who start with guard. Although if they were reduced to Agi 2 to start, I could live with that.
ErobererZim, you're looking at the price issue the wrong way (or I think you are).
Take snotlings for example - you say that if I make them 30k, then you would not have enough of them during the second half. My opinion is that the linesmen should have their price based around other linesmen; and can you really say that a snotling should be 10k cheaper than a Gnoblar? The gnoblar has +2 MA and +2 AV, but the snotling has regen and thick skull (which more than make up for the difference in AV if you do the math; you can expect 1/6 MORE snotlings to survive to the second half than you can Gnoblars), and also Two Heads (which permits more dodges, which for a strength 1 player is probably used more often in the game than the +2 MA, since you don't want to use Strength 1 players as ball carriers). Given that, I fail to see how the snotling can possibly be cheaper than a gnoblar.
From THAT point, you should then balance the rest of the team - if snotlings at this point are getting splattered too much (which I really don't think they would; on average, your team would be no more than 90k more expensive with this change, which is one extra positional on the opponent's team, or one more re-roll and one more skill), then, you should not change the linesmen - you should modify the rest of the team to suit the linesmen balance, because if I remove a snotling from the pitch, I want your team to be able to think about the TV of the snotling and go 'hey yeah.. you are weaker by an amount comparable to what you spent', since linesmen are what get removed the most often.
Similarly with Nurglings - AV7 is NOT that good, even if it is great in the context of Stunty - my last game against Nurglings, I caused a whopping 8 casualties. Sure I'm cflings, and I am built for damage, but ask ANY norse/amazon/skaven/elf player - AV 7 simply is NOT going to prevent casualties, even with regen. And if AV7 IS that strong, then gobbos should be more expensive too, because I would argue any day that agi 3 is FAR more important to the gobbos survival than regen is to a nurgling. And if the team overall has issues because the Nurglings are changed, then the positionals should be changed to reflect that, not the linesmen. (Additionally, I do think Nurglings are slightly underpowered, specifically due to the lack of agi on the entire team, and so I think the change to 40k would be justified both in terms of the linesmen comparison AND in terms of the team overall.)
Finally Horrors:
Chaos halfling: 5/2/3/6, dodge, stunty, right stuff, AM access
Nurglings: 5/2/2/7, dodge, stunty, regenerate
Horrors: 4/2/3/7, dodge, stunty, right stuff, throw teammate, jump up, regenerate, AM access
Horrors have 1 less speed; but almost EVERYONE on the team can throw each other; so when they really do need the movement, they can get it. Both chaos halflings and nurglings are speed 5 (or less!) on their entire teams, whereas a few of the horrors positionals are speed 6. Admittedly speed 6 is still not great, but combined with the prolific throw ability, I can't see how Horrors are THAT much slower than either chaos halflings or nurglings; and then we consider: horrors ALSO have the AV 7 of the nurglings AND regenerate AND agi 3 AND jump up. How can they possibly be the same price as nurglings? Similarly, they are only 10k more than a chaos halfling?
1 worse speed than many other linemen simply isn't THAT much of a detriment; if the whole team was speed 4, that would be a different matter; but they aren't. The linesmen (who are least likely to be the ball carrier, or the blitzer anyway) are the slow ones. And again, the linesmen should (in my opinion) be balanced around other linesmen, and then the rest of the team be made to fit in with the linesmen, not the linesmen being modified because the positionals aren't balanced right.
So I hope this explains some more why I have taken the stand I have. |
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ErobererZim
Joined: Dec 19, 2009
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Feb 29, 2012 - 08:58 |
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The Greatest NO for the 30k cost on the Snot is you stole them the best skills and give them a nn skill with SS. Well I think u dont see the long Tail, when u change it. this Team can nothing when u have no Snots on the Pitch. u have 1Bonhead, 3 Realy stuipd Guys and a high Str Guy with realy realy weak Armor, when he goes down he is from the pitch. When u make Snots Cost 30k, than must be the Snothero Cost 50k and of course there be so Strong that there cost so much (no NEVER) Str1 AV5 is so weak, Saws breaks them Automaticly, only Snakes can protest em, Stabs hit them Quit often, so there be more lieing on the Pitch or be outside, Guys with MB break the Armor feels everytime, when u have PO too, Still 90%+ to break there Armor. Well I`ve got an realy good Snotling Team http://www.fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=683264 and you can see, so much high Strange/hart hitting Payers u have there cant handle alone Games when the Snots dies everytime and/or goes from the pitch. U see I have a 0 Cas Diffenrence. Cause my smallguys plopps like hell and without TS and Rege, and I can Say after your changes I would lost 90% of the Games cause totaly Screwed of players (and my roster have 15Players). And you dont will have skilled Snots like my Team have cause there will be crippled and/or dies so fast and no Apo in the Team.
+2MA and +2AV makes better Protection vs Saws/Stabs/fouls/MB/PO. and dont blast so much ReRolls and makes TOs cause failt gfi. But I be thinking the whole Gnoblar Team isnt good, there need the 3rd BG to choose, without them I think there be useless. Why give a Team 3 Big-Guys when u can have only 2 and in content a couble of STR1 Dudes, there failt the STR.
I can blame same over the Squigs, who have no Player who can pick General on normal skill and no Player who can tank Saws or Stabs. so u need a Couble of Doubles to make a Good Blitzer on the Ball and/or Damage Dealers. a lot of STR4 players (most of them Boneheads and all with Blood Lust) blown so much your ReRolls that you dont get 1Player down cause no Block no Tackle and than cames your Pain cause ALL have AV7 and there goes so quit fast down and/or from the pitch. The ReRolls on this Team be to Expensive, inline of a Team who have to make so much 1dices. And cant protect his Positional Players cause failt Player with high AV and/or the choice of Generalskills.
And to the Other Changes: Its an Style League, it goes to the Flavour of a Team and the Content to the Team which other players u have in the Team u have to see the WHOLE team not only on a few Positions. This is the same to the Squigs (but I think there need a Playertype who can choose general not only on a double). |
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WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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Feb 29, 2012 - 19:49 |
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| Nelphine wrote: | | ...don't just create super cool positionals, and awesome fluff for your team, and be forced into accepting very strange prices for your most basic player in order to make the team seem to work. |
I don't see this as a problem, but in fact prefer this approach. I don't think creating rosters is purely mathematical, they also need to feel right. I think the original Bogey proposal I guessed at all the player values, based on other positions, perceived strength, and gut feeling. I think the numbers were pretty close to the current variation. I think that with no fluff and crazy positionals, it just becomes an accounting exercise. Not as much fun in that. Even with regular FFB teams, the costing of linemen is not truly consistent, but juggled to balance the rest of the team.
That said, I haven't read through all the details of your costing rational, so I am by no means discounting any of that. Will go through that in more detail, time permitting. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Feb 29, 2012 - 19:57 |
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Heh, just as one point WhatBall - I specifically think you DO need fluff. But I feel what has happened with some of these teams is that, due to the fluff, certain players were given certain skills and stats; and then the team as a whole was priced to be reasonably balanced. But instead of having the linemen price match their stats, and the positionals then priced to make the team balanced (around both the positionals stats/skills and the linesmen price), instead the positionals were priced to match their stats, and then the linesmen were priced in order to make the team balanced.
I simply feel this was the wrong way to go about it, and I would rather see strange price variations on a positional then on a linesmen (after determining all fluff decisions for stats/skills).
The only place that I feel any fluff MIGHT be interefering with price-based-on-stats linemen is with the Horrors - they are S2 and AV7, and yet they have an abundance of skills, and basing a price on these stat/skills ends up with an inordinately expensive linemen, which is why I suggested the fluff might be changed to remove jump up from the starting skill selection in order to obtain linemen who have a price based around their stats. |
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Olesh
Joined: Jun 24, 2010
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Feb 29, 2012 - 20:03 |
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Nelphine: While I appreciate your desire to wildly modify teams willy-nilly according to your own mysterious vagaries, stop.
Seriously, stop. Anybody who is going down the team list and just suggesting changes for a bunch of teams is probably going to be ignored in the long run, no matter how well meaning, because it's very unlikely that you have put in the kind of effort each individual team deserves.
If you are going to suggest changes to a team, you should post your suggestions in the thread dedicated to that team.
Also Nelphine your concept of pricing and your baseline is off, because if you extrapolate pricing based on your posts you end up with different prices (compared to the current pricing) for every stunty player that I bothered to check (it was more than a couple).
For the most part, stunty pricing is actually done reasonably tightly and is very internally consistent. If you go to the individual team pages and look at the rosters, you should have no problems figuring out the logic used in pricing players.
Edit: I suppose I should give some examples. Skinks are identical to Goblins but are MA7 instead of MA6. Cost-wise, going from MA6->MA7 is actually different than going from MA5->MA6 or (in reverse) MA6->MA5 from a team design standpoint. Subtracting stats or skills from the baseline should generally not return as much player value as the equivalent increase from the baseline.
Regarding the Horrors, you are incorrectly pricing Right Stuff and/or Throw Team-Mate as a skill (they're traits). Also, Horrors are -2 MA and +10k relative to Goblins, to gain Jump Up and Regeneration. This seems reasonable to me, especially when you consider that Horrors in their current form win fewer games on average in stunty leeg than any team besides Snotlings. |
Last edited by Olesh on %b %29, %2012 - %20:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Feb 29, 2012 - 20:16 |
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coolio - I just thought I'd throw my thought out there. I will leave it at that, and thank anyone who takes the time to read it and think about it; and since I am not as experienced as many others, I will simply not worry about it. |
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Olesh
Joined: Jun 24, 2010
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Feb 29, 2012 - 20:21 |
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I'm not trying to be a huge jerk about it, which is why I went and edited in a couple examples so you can see the kind of thing I'm referring to. I just feel that discussion regarding team changes would be better done in the appropriate threads, so that this thread can focus on sweeping changes to Stunty as a whole (like the whole Secret Weapons business). |
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shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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Feb 29, 2012 - 20:32 |
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just for clarification....
| Nelphine wrote: | | ...instead the positionals were priced to match their stats, and then the linesmen were priced in order to make the team balanced. |
while i can't speak for how the pricing was done when these races were implemented, i can speak for my own modifications....
and this was not how it was done...each time's prices were evaluated on their own merit...while there was some bit of pricing done in comparison to the rest of the league(ie: one team's linemen weren't drastically overpriced compared to the others, similar positionals being priced similarly, etc), the majority of pricing was done within a team bubble...
--j |
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| origami wrote: | | There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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| Posted:
Feb 29, 2012 - 20:35 |
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that's cool; I'm just mentioning 4 linemen that stand out every time I try to decide if I want to make a new Stunty Leeg team, and how they skew my opinions of those teams. |
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shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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Feb 29, 2012 - 21:01 |
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yeah but, for example, your skink evaluation....olesh hinted at this, but i don't think he delved into it deep enough to explain exactly why MA6->MA7 is important...
the problem with your +1 viewpoint, is that it's not put into perspective of how it functions in gameplay....it's more than just MA6->MA7....
MA6->MA7 is a critical MA change, as you're not just gaining 1 point in movement, you are now gaining more security, less risk, etc....
with MA6, you have a 2-turner with some risk involved...one GFI and you can 2-turn, without any TTM requirements...
with MA7, you have a *solid* 2-turner that can even do it off of the LoS, with zero GFI risk....
it's kind of the same step from MA2->MA3 for trees...you're not just gaining +1MA, you're now losing rolls to be able to achieve a goal...
hopefully that explains at least that example, and helps express that there is some decent reasoning behind the pricing of other things, despite if they may seem a little weird..
--j |
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| origami wrote: | | There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet. |
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