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Poll
Based on the team downgrades options (see pg 2), how far does this team have to go to become balanced?
None! This team is fine as is!
34%
 34%  [ 13 ]
#1 Just dump one of the big guys, then you're golden
7%
 7%  [ 3 ]
#2 Drop ST on all those Tinkers as well
5%
 5%  [ 2 ]
#3 All the gnomes were too strong, ST1 throughout!
7%
 7%  [ 3 ]
#4 ST1 gnomes AND ST2 Constructs is the ticket
7%
 7%  [ 3 ]
#5 Doesn't matter what you do, this team sucks and I hates them
36%
 36%  [ 14 ]
Total Votes : 38


Sigmar1



Joined: Aug 13, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 18:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Amongst Gnomish society there is the small but generally well respected profession of Artificer. These are the tireless, ingenious Gnomes which create all of the wondrous and useful widgits, gadgets and thingamabobbers Gnomes are rightly renowned for.

Within their ranks however is a much less well respected minority…Artificers fascinated with the idea of creating the perfect Bloodbowl player. This audacious fraternity is looked down on and ridiculed by their brethren, but they forge ahead anyway.

Their plans called for a player who was fast, strong, agile and tough, with mad skills to boot! The best ever! (Well, three outta five is the best they could do.) Implementation has proven to be a challenge however. Construct Mk I kept falling apart, Mk II couldn’t pick up the ball, Mk III…well, let’s just say they’ve been working at it a while now.

But finally, they had a Construct ready for production. They fielded a team and put it up against some scrub humans, confident of victory. They got massacred. The Ogre smashed their precious Constructs to pieces, the humans ran circles around them, and worst of all, the limited GI (Gnomish Intelligence) ‘programmed’ into their clockwork brains just couldn’t keep up with the variables inherent in a game of Bloodbowl and they spent much of the game too confused to move.

So it was determined that the Constructs needed some Artificers on the pitch to keep them tuned up and doing the right thing. And they clearly needed something to take on the Ogres of the world. Back to the drawing board!

Their second foray onto the pitch was no less disappointing…and much more costly. The funeral services for the poor Artificers alone nearly bankrupted the group’s savings. It was obvious that ‘real’ Bloodbowl was out of the question. So that’s when they turned to the Stunty Leeg, and the rest was history.

Player Descriptions:

Bastion:
Image Image
A hulking machine designed to hold the center and challenge/ tie up opposing big guys.

Constructs:
Image Image
The latest and greatest version of the Construct, fast, strong and tough, with the best skill the Gnomes could program into the limited GI...Block! Agility is still lacking, but it's the best the Gnomes could deliver. (Alternate position names: Piledriver, Ramrod. Other ideas welcome!)

Mechanics:
Image Image Image Image
The lead designers amongst the Artificers...the oldest, strongest, canniest, most experienced Gnomes on the team.

Tinkers:
Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image Image
The Mechanics assistants and apprentices, responsible for keeping the Bastion and Constructs greased up, pointed in the right direction, and doing the right thing.

0-1 Bastion 3/5/1/10 Loner, Mighty Blow, TTM, Thick skull, Stand Firm, Really Stupid, Decay S/GP 110K.
0-2 Construct Mk X 6/3/2/9 Loner, Block, Thick skull, Really Stupid, Decay S/GP 100K.
0-2 Mechanics 5/2/3/8 Dodge, Leader, Stunty, Right Stuff, Thick skull GA/SP 80K.
0-16 Tinkers 5/1/3/7 Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff, Thick skull A/GSP 30K.

RR: 50K
Apo: yes

Design Notes: So, obviously the challenge here (as always) is team balance. On one hand you have the high AV, thick skull, and ST3 Block Constructs vs. a relatively slow team, Really Stupid/ Loner/ Decay on three positionals, and a minimum of six ST1 players on the pitch. (By design and fluff, the Bastion and Constructs CAN NOT have agility skills, not even on doubles). I think I’ve done a fair job of it.

Feedback welcome!

EDIT #1: Modified for clarity.
EDIT #2: Revised players for balance.
EDIT #3: Modified the fluff a bit to fit the latest player attributes.
EDIT #4: Removed Fend from the Gnomes and added Leader to the Mechanics. Adjusted costs.

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Last edited by Sigmar1 on Jan 14, 2014 - 00:48; edited 25 times in total
Olesh



Joined: Jun 24, 2010

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 23:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Even if you could restrict agility skills, your team isn't particularly slow (as compared to, say, Horrors or snotlings) and it's exceptionally bashy. At the very minimum, I'd make the rerolls more expensive and I'd probably value the Constructs higher (100k) if you're dead set on having a player that starts with Block (note that no existing stunty teams have a player that starts with it, and very few teams can get it on more than two players without having to roll doubles).
zakatan



Joined: May 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 23:44 Reply with quote Back to top

i don't think 2 big guys and 2 st3 block dudes is just too much bashiness. Either romove an automaton or tone down the constructs.

i'd scrap decay altogether (from the rulebook). Hate this trait...

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Nightbird



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Mar 02, 2012 - 23:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Gnome daredevils start w/ block, so you are wrong on that front Olesh, but they are the only ones if I'm not mistaken.

I love the concept Sig, really cool.

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Olesh



Joined: Jun 24, 2010

Post   Posted: Mar 03, 2012 - 02:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Nightbird: You are correct. They also start with Dauntless and Frenzy! But they also have G access.
Zakatan: I'm looking at the big picture, trying to imagine how the team will play and develop. There's very strong incentives to play a slow, bashy game and dwarf it out rather than take the risks necessary to score a whole lot.

I dunno, the team in general doesn't really jump out at me.
Sigmar1



Joined: Aug 13, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 04, 2012 - 00:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks for the feedback so far guys. I'm open to any and all suggestions...

@Zakatan: What would you tone down about the Constructs specifically? You don't think Really Stupid/ Loner/ Decay is enough of a disadvantage to offset the stat line + Block? Those seem like incredibly major disadvantages for the teams main draw. After all, the gnomes are just humdrum stunty players (albeit with slightly different stats from the mainstream gnomes), and the Automaton is basically a non-regen/ decay Troll with a stat swap. Although it has better speed, the Construct certainly seems nowhere near as killer as the Mechavermin (nor would I want it to be!) As for RR cost, it seems to me the gnomes would have a 'precision' game that involved lots of practice, hence the low RR cost. Plus, you just know those Constructs/ Automatons are going to eat RRs in order to attempt to overcome the inevitable RS rolls.

@Olesh: I'm not surprised the team 'doesn't jump out at you'. After all, I had a neat idea, developed the fluff, and then allowed that to take me to what I felt was it's logical conclusion, balanced as I thought best. I didn't try to make it 'sexy' or fill in any obvious playstyle holes (ball-movement among others) that the team developed during creation.

As for the pricing, that was just my first pass and I'm sure Shadow will wind up determining the proper cost should he feel the team deserves a shot at the big time. Now, I know pricing between Regular and Stunty does not cross-over, but I took the Orc Blitzer (6339 Block, 90K) as the basis. Add thick skull, then add -AG, RS, Loner, Decay. After that 80K seemed reasonable, but I realize ST3/Block is a huge advantage in stunty so a higher cost is possibly warranted.

Ultimately, I just had an idea that demanded I put it down, without too much thought into 'is it too similar to X' or 'does it have weakness Y'. To me it doesn't feel overpowered, but thats what everyone thinks of their own team Smile

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Olesh



Joined: Jun 24, 2010

Post   Posted: Mar 04, 2012 - 00:52 Reply with quote Back to top

You'd probably be better off, pricing-wise, starting with a basic goblin and working up from there, or picking a ST3 player from a different stunty leeg and adjusting costs that way. Also be aware that dropping from AG3->AG2 is generally not considered much of a disadvantage for an individual player unless the entire team is so penalized - if the player isn't going to be handling the ball and probably wasn't going to dodge in the first place, it's not much of a drawback and that's factored into the cost adjustment. Similarly, Decay doesn't negatively impact a player's ability to act and so doesn't really have a cost adjustment associated with it - in the context of a single game, decay is irrelevant.

As for the team not jumping out at me, well, it doesn't seem all that different from the existing Gnomes. Gnomes are only an interesting team because of their bombadiers but with those off the pitch you have a bunch of high armor guys without much else working for them. These Artificers would be like Gnomes without their bombadiers and cannon and just some bashy dudes to replace them. Personally, I'd laugh if the big guys had 1 AG and bomb to represent a tendency to explode randomly - the bombadier part wouldn't be reliable in the least, but with AV10 you'd have the option to "detonate" and take some guys around them down in a pinch. Just silly ideas like that.
PsyPhiGrad



Joined: Dec 22, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 04, 2012 - 01:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Olesh, I love your silly idea for a self-destruct device and I agree with the rest of your assessment too.
Sigmar1



Joined: Aug 13, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 04, 2012 - 21:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Well...I hate the idea of an AG1 Bombadier just for lulz. After all, if they 'blew up' shouldn't they be gone? Or at least stunned? That would require a low AV so as to be affected by the blast. Plus, adding a Bombadier would make them EVEN MORE like the current Gnome team.

The gnomes are making a 'serious' attempt at creating the ultimate blood bowl player (within the limitations they have to work with).

I understand if you and Psyphi don't like the team... but I was hoping for more feedback from other players as well. Who knows, perhaps the concensus would be that the team isn't a good fit for stunty, but I'd at least like a few more people's input.

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Rabe



Joined: Jun 06, 2009

Post   Posted: Mar 04, 2012 - 22:54 Reply with quote Back to top

I had a few ideas for a partly similar team. I'm currently writing them down for you, maybe there's something useful among them. Will post something on it within the next week.

I really like the idea and believe it offers some real uniqueness!


Edit:
Oh, and I really like the idea of a kamikaze player that is rather fast and can dodge everywhere (Stunty, Titchy, Two Heads), but his only purpose is to blow himself up in the middle of the opposition. Very Happy Maybe not best suited for this particular team, but a fun idea in general.

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Sigmar1



Joined: Aug 13, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 05, 2012 - 17:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Sounds good Rabe, looking forward to it.

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Craftnburn



Joined: Jul 29, 2005

Post   Posted: Mar 05, 2012 - 17:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Sigmar1 wrote:
Sounds good Rabe, looking forward to it.
Next time just save some bits and write: BUMP! Razz
WhatBall



Joined: Aug 21, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 05, 2012 - 21:11
FUMBBL Staff
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Firstly, not a huge fan of robots and such in BB, but if anyone is going to have them, it is most fitting the Skryre and Gnomes do. And this isn't silly steam punk, so I can handle it. Wink

My initial thoughts on review of the roster is that it is too strong. Not just with the 4 stronger players, but with the support crew too. Things you may want to consider:

- Naming: I don't like the names automaton and construct. That is what they are, but what are they called? I.e. you didn't have the British light fighter aircraft mkII, you had the Spitfire. Give them some appropriate names. Off the top of my head, Stompers for the heavier ones. That is probably a bad name, but gives you an idea. I think naming the machines gives them more personality.

- No Block on the constructs. I think Block would be a hard thing to program. Stand Firm?

- I like the idea of decay on high AV machines. It gives a sense of the delicacy of the inner workings and effort required to fix them.

- One idea to balance the team's strength is consider ST1 Tinkers, but not Titchy. These would be the smaller and less fit engineering (geek) Gnomes. You might even be able to trade the ST for an extra MA, giving them some uniqueness.

- What is the AG on normal Gnomes? IS AG3 high for them?

- Might want to consider one more machine positional? Maybe something crazy and prone to self-destruction? Maybe a B&C with reasonable strength (say ST3, maybe 4, and decent movement, MA5) and Tackle, Strip Ball. A flailing out of control ball stealer. Limit it to 0-1 positions.

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PsyPhiGrad



Joined: Dec 22, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 06, 2012 - 00:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Whatball, sounds like you were reading up on the proposed Chaos Dwarf stunty team.
http://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=12534&start=30

I agree, it does have some good names and background. Stompers sound like the perfect Dawi Zarr Daemondroids. Excellent origin and with the new changes to Ball & Chain letting you hit downed players, i think it fits perfectly. And at Strength 2, they are really different from anything in Stunty.

I liked your idea about Stand Firm that I added to my latest update of this abandoned roster. I'd love to see your feedback in that thread, as it seems we share a lot of similar ideas on the team.
Sigmar1



Joined: Aug 13, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 06, 2012 - 01:32 Reply with quote Back to top

@Whatball - thanks for your input. To address your comments:

- Naming...I'll have to think on that. I see what you're saying and I'm sure better names could be developed. Originally I looked at it from an 'Engineer's' POV, rather than a 'Marketing' POV. Technical types tend to be rather dry in their naming conventions. Off the top of my head Barricade (pretty good) and Ramrod (pretty lame) come to mind for the Automaton and Construct.

- Block. Hmm. It's widely known that Block is the best most essential skill for Bloodbowl and the Gnomes are trying to make the best possible Bloodbowl player (originally intended to compete in regular Bloodbowl until the limitations of the GI required the Gnomes to take the field in support). I'd rather modify the Construct some other way or balance the team some other way than lose it, as it's really what I consider the main draw/ unique schtick of the team. And standfirm would make him too much like the Mechavermin. I was hoping that the Really Stupid/ Loner negatraits combined with not getting G access without doubles and no A access at all would offset the obvious advantage to ST3 Block. This key positional is as unreliable as a big guy.

- Yes, my first concept was ST1 Tinkers so that's a possibility. There are however other teams with the same distribution of player stength (2xST5, 2XST3, the rest ST2...Horrors for example). Although the Construct has Block, they have Bombs/ Regen/ Mutations etc. It seemed like a fairly even trade over all, but a change I'm amenable to if more reviewers felt it was necessary. Zakatan had suggested going 0-1 on the Automatons as a possible remedy to too much team strength.

- Gnomes are AG3 except the Daredevil.

- Another machine player...I can see where you're going with that, and perhaps a different Machine player would add some 'fun-factor' to the list. I suppose I could change the fluff to accommodate another player type. I'll have to ponder that one a bit. My intent had never really been to create a 'machine-based' team, rather, it was a team built to field & support the Artificer's primary project, the Construct.

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