shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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 Posted:
Mar 16, 2012 - 18:47 |
 
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| JackRose wrote: | | Quote: | | I am not officially involved in the design of the Stunty Division. These are simply my observations, and the direction I would like to see the division go in. |
You sneaky git! Who is involved then? |
....
i am...
which should hopefully put my earlier comments a little bit more into perspective...but just to recap, so you have a better idea of the inner workings of the league...
| JackRose wrote: | | zakatan wrote: | | tiers are evil and a sign of bad game designing |
Funny you mention that, since Stunty is, as far as I can tell, the only part of the game that the fumbbl community can affect that design of. And there ARE tiers, or at least teams of varying strength. |
no....
there are no tiers....period...
--j |
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| origami wrote: | | There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Mar 16, 2012 - 19:33 |
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| shadow46x2 wrote: | there are no tiers....period...
--j |
Are there teams that are overall better or worse than other teams?
You might be aiming for all teams to be equal but it isnt going to pan out exactly like that and grouping teams according to relative strengths is a handy way of describing the differences. Obviously tiers arent something to aim for during design but they do exist. |
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Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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Sigmar1
Joined: Aug 13, 2008
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Mar 16, 2012 - 19:42 |
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Regarding whether tiers exist or not...
I don't see how you classify Pygmies as anything other than 'at the bottom'.
About the only thing they would rate higher than would be a 'standard' halfling team, and even then only because Krox > Trees. |
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Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges! |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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| Posted:
Mar 16, 2012 - 19:48 |
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Tiers are completely arbitrary so if someone has a lot of stats and wants to define their tiers they can. Look at VoodooMike's Blackbox tiers for instance.
The BBRC randomly decided on win% of 45-55 being tier 1 etc but anyone can define tiers as they wish and apply them to stunty. |
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Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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JackRose
Joined: Nov 18, 2010
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Mar 16, 2012 - 20:27 |
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You don't like the nomenclature of "Tiers"? Fine, we will say, "Team Rosters of varying strength." You want stats? I went through and looked at the win/loss records for all the active stunty teams of people who posted in this thread. I see that a lot of you who are commenting don't play stunty. Here is the data from my extremely unscientific sample:
| Code: | TEAM GAMES WINS WIN%
Eshin Adpets 18 13 72%
Goblin Cheaters 72 43 60%
Gnome 28 16 57%
Nurglings 21 12 57%
Forest Goblins 34 19 56%
Skink 22 12 55%
Fairies 6 3 50%
Chaos Halfling 51 23 45%
Strigoyan 32 14 44%
Squig Herders 23 10 43%
Horrors of Tzeentch 38 16 42%
Skyre Slaves 3 1 33%
Snotling 13 1 8% |
Sorry for the formatting. I know it looks hideous. |
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Ehlers
Joined: Jun 26, 2006
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Mar 17, 2012 - 02:03 |
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Jackrose your stats mean nothing as the rosters are not 100% in line with the rules or client. Chainsaw not having secret weapon. B&C move as they like and not secret weapon. And you dont know if snotling only played lets say goblin cheacters (where I just assume that goblin cheaters have an edge over snotlings. Dont know if it is true, but some teams do have edges over others).
And the problem with tiers as others has explained and as shadow lies with perception and how you draw out those stats and decide if they are tier 1 or another team.
The problem lies in that you have different skills, counter skills and different team settings.
Take this example:
11 6338 players with dodge
11 6338 players with tackle
11 6338 players with MB
All at equal cost.
Clearly the dodge can be a counter to MB as they will be able to do less damage. Tackle is a counter to Dodge and worthless vs MB.
What of these teams are better intern of tier?
And what about TW range? Have you considered that? What about match up, considered that? What about coach ability, considered that?
Some teams develop towards a bash style, others a pure ball handling, others a middle way.
And some teams will be good at low TW, but as they get into high TW range they will lose their edge and just lose to all the other teams.
Si in my view is the correct way shadow is taking a look at this. Remove the thoughts of creating tiers and align teams towards being equal to win in a game of where some teams is better off vs some and worser off towards others.
Theorycrafting can only tell you that much, it wont be able to really predict the actual outcome of how a team will be able to fair towards all teams in varius TW levels. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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| Posted:
Mar 17, 2012 - 02:22 |
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I think I have to be sad; apparently my chaos halflings played 3 of the 13 snotling games, and were the ones who lost the game. (they also tied the other 2 games, and out of all 3 games, my Spriggans caused less casualties even before regen negated most of the cas I did cause)
Snotlings are OP! |
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shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 17, 2012 - 02:59 |
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jimmy already nailed it on the head...
the nomenclature is irrelevant...what you're not grasping is teams have strengths and weakness relevant to themselves, as well as to other rosters...
team a is stronger than team b....and team b is stronger than team c...
by your logic, team a is Tier 1, team b is Tier 2, team c is Tier 3...
but what happens when team c is stronger than team a?...
congrats, your tiers are now useless because they contradict each other....
sure, you can argue that there are teams that are notoriously bottom of the totem pole...sure you can argue that there are teams that are notoriously king of the hill...
but the problem is every coach looks at it differently, and interprets the scenario differently...which is where the whole comment about "theorycrafting" comes into play...tiers provides nothing but a conversation piece for people to debate, and has little to no relevance in the design of the division as a whole...
as for your stats...a) there's no gnoblars, b) there's no pygmies, c) there's extremely limited data, d) a pretty substantial mechanic(secret weapon) is still borked in the client....i could go on and on and on...
point is, your stats don't prove anything....
listen, i'm not squashing the idea of having a conversation about tiers, please be my guest....i like seeing the traffic in the forum...
what i'm advocating against is using it as anything of relevance *other* than a conversation piece, or a point of debate between coaches...
--j |
_________________
| origami wrote: | | There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Mar 17, 2012 - 10:04 |
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Jackrose - I'm pretty certain that those stats are worthless due to samplesize etc. Not that they are meaningless but they wont provide a strong enough case to pursuade anyone of anything.
| Ehlers wrote: | Take this example:
11 6338 players with dodge
11 6338 players with tackle
11 6338 players with MB
All at equal cost. |
Amusingly these teams would be incredibly easy to tier after a game or two. The mighty blow team is relatively tricky to estimate given zero game experience but I'm pretty sure those teams would end up as...
Tier 1 - Dodge
Tier 2 - Mighty Blow
Tier 3 - Tackle
The whole "rock/paper/scissors OMG what does balance even mean?" argument is a bit of a straw house that ignores the concept of aggregate scores. You might as well ask if RPS is balanced if you score 5 points for winning with rock, three points with scissors, and one point for each win with paper.... the answer isnt completely trivial but its not beyond grasp. Just saying  |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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BillBrasky
Joined: Feb 15, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 17, 2012 - 10:43 |
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When my Mini-WMD team is official, they will be tier 1. & All others will be tier 2.
Problem Solved.
Oh... Mini-WMD's:
0-1 Dragon Ogre 7 7 4 10 Block, Claw, MB (GSAM, P) 150k
0-16 Murderlings 5 2 3 6 dodge, stunty (AM, GSP) 40k |
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Kalamona
Joined: Apr 21, 2005
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| Posted:
Mar 17, 2012 - 12:47 |
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my suggested team idea:
STUNTY LEEG DESIGNERS
0-16 Neverplayeditbuthaveideas 8 1 1 6 Really Stupid
0-8 Iplayedonce 7 1 2 6 Bone head
0-4 regularplayer 6 2 2 7 Wild animal
0-2 experienced 5 2 3 7 Bloodlust
0-1 shadow46x2 5 5 2 8 Loner |
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stej
Joined: Jan 05, 2009
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| Posted:
Mar 17, 2012 - 13:53 |
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7s for fummbl?
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